Episode 237: The Risk of Saying Yes to Your Calling | Andrew Petterson | Artist, Creator & Fabricator
Andrew Petterson didn’t take the straight path to becoming a fine artist. He’s an engineer, fabricator, and former custom car builder who’s worked on some of the most iconic cars in the business. But art kept calling. In this episode, Kara and Andrew talk about the creative risks it takes to bet on yourself, how his show Hot Shoe Chronicles came together, and what it means to create art that’s timeless. They also talk about fear, flow, identity, motorcycles, mentorship, and the magic of saying yes to your soul’s work. Whether you're a painter, builder, or dreaming of your first show, this episode explores what happens when you stop playing it safe, and trust that the universe will catch you.
“Can it be this magical every time? Can I just create these insanely serendipitous & magical situations every time I do this? If so, that’s fucking awesome. That’s why I want to be an artist and share my art with the world. The incentive I’m getting is bigger than any incentive I can ever get. It’s what I always wanted to do and the universe says yes.”
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Artist, Creator, Engineer, Fabricator
Flat Track Vintage Motorcycle Racing
Dutch & Vikki (owners of Bike Shed)
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Follow along using the Transcript
Chapters:
(00:02:53) The “Best Friday Ever” and Why He Finally Said Yes to His First Solo Show(00:08:56) Compromising Creativity vs. Making Work That Sells
(00:13:02) Fear, Resistance, and the Power of Getting Scared
(00:14:29) The Most Pivotal Moment: Go Takamine and the Bike Shed
(00:16:46) Can It Be This Magical Every Time You Make Art?
(00:31:36) Motorcycles as Genre Paintings and the Birth of Hot Shoe Chronicles
(00:38:18) Community Support and the Risk of Being Seen
(00:43:23) Flat Track Racing, Fabrication, and Custom Car Culture
(00:52:51) Building a Show: Curation, Logistics, and Creative Direction
(01:02:12) Why He Left the Custom World to Paint Full-Time
(01:12:13) Masculinity, Identity, and Artistic Vulnerability
(01:17:57) Talent vs. Hard Work and Why He’s Betting on Himself
So as an artist, you never want to compromise your creativity for what you think will sell, but if you can, that's awesome. You know what I mean? If you can say, oh, this is something I love, like this is really cool and I can see these really cool paintings and oh my God, there's so many people out there that might be interested in this.
That's Andrew Petterson. I'm Kara Duffy, and this is The Powerful Ladies podcast.
So you just had the Best Friday ever,
dude. Good Friday, big Friday. A lot of traveling, but yeah. Good Friday.
As we're jumping in, let's tell everyone who you are, where you are in the world, and what you're up to.
Okay. My name is Andrew Pederson. I'm an artist and creator engineer fabricator in San Clemente, California.
And what, why was today a big day for you?
So I have a art show coming up October 13th at this place called The Bike Shed in Los Angeles. And like budgets are obviously always something when you're doing a show on your own, like something that you're worried about, probably worried more about that than anything really.
So trying to do things on like a shoestring budget, but then you start to think about we may not be getting the best lighting, we may not be getting the best, this and that. So I had a moment where I'm like, what's the point of the show if my art doesn't look good on the wall? So I'd gone up there today to meet with a lighting guy and talk about how he would light it, how it was gonna look the best.
'cause the original estimate was like full-blown museum level lighting and it was. Expensive, but it would've been amazing. And so we're like, okay, what can we do with the less and what will it look like with less? And will my art still, shine? So fortunately it sounded like that's solely gonna work out.
And more importantly, he's just a great dude. I think, like for me, if I meet someone, I'm like, okay, this feels different now. Like over email, I'm like, oh, I don't like this guy. I don't know about this guy. And then you see their face and you're like, oh yeah he's a good dude. He's a salt of the earth, good English dude.
And I think that plays the bike shed, they're like old blood, like everybody goes way back with each other. And I really trust them through a mutual friend. So to have him work with them or be working with them for so long made me just be like okay cool. I understand the origin of this.
This is someone I don't need to worry about what they're doing with my money. Like I feel like they're gonna maximize my investment in them, so yeah, it was awesome to
and so you are having your first solo exhibit that you are self-funding. Yes. And we were joking 'cause I'm working with you on it, that you felt like this was planning a wedding.
It's the same, it's the same thing, but I you know what's funny 'cause I, I watched my neighbors get married and help them with a lot of their wedding and same thing type budget for them and just figuring out ways to make it work. So we were making like this huge truck beer run all together and like loading and unloading it at the venue, which was to me just felt like we were about to throw a huge party and that, that set a really great mood to it.
But. Watching how much they were work they were putting into the event and getting the event ready to be doing it for an art show. Right now. I'm like, this is all the same stuff. Like they were worried about lighting, they were worried about tables and they were worried about where people are, what people were gonna do.
So I was like, oh my God, this feels the same. And then the other day I was like, oh, that's interesting 'cause I might make money at the end of it. Like I felt better with the idea that like, oh man, you do this wedding and then at the end of it all, like you're just married now and can you quantify?
The amazing experience you had for sure. But like to be able to throw an event like this that feels like a wedding and have it be like, oh it's, yeah. I was trying to think of how to compare it to A wedding differently, but this idea that it's so much preparation for this one day, this one thing, and how magical can I make it, yeah. And actually I think the reason why I thought. It was so much like a wedding was the, when I saw the venue and I was like, oh my God, I know how a bride feels when like she sees that venue space where she's oh my God, babe, this is where we have to get married. Like I saw that space and I was like, oh my God, this is where I have to have the show.
And once we saw the sticker price, I was like, I don't care. This is way more money than I ever wanna spend, but if I don't have it here, I'm gonna, I'm gonna regret it. It's just not gonna feel right to me.
And part of why the bike shed in LA is such a perfect fit is because of the context of your paintings.
And like the entire collection is about following guys doing flat track, vintage racing on motorcycles.
Yeah. Yeah. So the venue that I had really wanted to have it in before that was a Peterson Automotive Museum. Just 'cause I was like, that's a good fit and. It should, it could look really cool there. And once we started looking into that venue, like the venue actually wasn't that bad to rent for the night, but we were like, oh my God, we're gonna have to set up lights, walls.
They provided nothing for us really, other than like this incredible museum to be at and tons of parking compared to the bike shed. But I was like, oh, once I realized that the bike shed was the spot, I was like, oh my God. Yeah. Like we get, I get free clientele. Like I get people that are specific, so specifically interested in these paintings.
Like I realized that there's layers to, there's layers of interest that people have in these. In motorcycles and motorcycle arts. There's the guy that rides on the weekends and polishes his Harley after every ride and has all this new gear and is like a successful attorney or banker or something.
There's that kind of square dude and then there are these guys that are like culture freaks and so into it and such a core group and they're spending every dollar they have to invest in their bike and make their bike cooler and faster and to feel like, oh, all these painting, these paintings appeal to all those people.
And that's a pretty large group. So as an artist, when you're like, you never want to compromise your creativity for what you think will sell, but if you can, that's awesome. You know what I mean? If you can say, oh, this is something I love, like this is really cool and I can see these really cool paintings and oh my God, there's so many people out there that might be interested in this.
I think that was a really incredible turning point for me. 'cause I think in the sense of painting portraits, I love portraits, I love portraiture. That really is like my passion, but it's real hard to sell somebody a picture of a random person no matter how well it's painted. So finding like it don't even feel like compromises, but finding unique ways to change what you're doing to make it have a larger appeal, I think is it feels like marketing.
And if you can do it without compromising your creative integrity or anything like that, it's like that's when you're really in that like narrow space of oh shit, this is a good, this is a good thing you have going on.
And I feel like as we have decided to have the event and we picked the date and we picked a space, like all of these things keep happening.
Like these really amazing kismet moments of who else gets involved or who else we talk to that doesn't have just one connection but has. Multiple layers of how you and this art and this space all make sense for them to be there and to be participating. And there's a lot of people that I've had on the podcast and many clients too, where you take a leap of faith to do something you're terrified to do.
And these golden moments make you feel like it is going to happen. It's going to work. So how has that experience been for you once you decided hell's yes, we're gonna do it? Holy shit, let's go. Yeah.
Yeah, it's been such a cool slow, like momentous build and to think about us having early conversations with working together and I, I really wanna do the show.
This is the reason why I would like to hire you. But also there's incredible other things obviously that I need help with. Maybe at the time seemed insane that I didn't know them, but now it's like huge parts of my life. But you have to think okay, we're gonna put this flag pole out on the horizon and say, okay, let's think about having this show in three or four months and let's really start ironing down what that looks like as far as us being prepared to do it.
So like, how many paintings do you wanna have? How many paintings are you getting done? How many paintings do you need to do? Like that really fundamental part of it was like. That I can expand and contract that so much where like I can pick away at a painting while I'm doing other things and making other small paintings.
I can pick away at a painting for years, but until I'm like, okay, you need to have this done. I can sit down and be like, okay, I'm not painting, drawing, working on anything else. I'm just painting this painting. And then the painting will finish. Like the biggest painting in the series I did in a week and a half.
And the smaller paintings took al some took a year, some took eight months because I just had so many other things going on, and I would only pick away at 'em at a little bit at a time. But we're not fully focused and dedicating. They move fast. But as far as like the synchronicities and like the momentum of this project coming together, it's really been like. I think I'll always be in my way more than anyone else in my life. And it's glorious to be self-aware of that. But it's also a bummer 'cause you're like, fuck, I just want to get outta my way. And you can even have someone on the phone being like, dude, get out of the way.
And you're like, I'm trying. I'm trying. I don't wanna be in the way. So I think like when you have these serendipitous moments that really squash the fear or the things that, 'cause I can pin it down and like I'm slowing this down and I'm sandbagging this process 'cause I'm scared.
And like I can make that last forever.
I can make that last two more lifetimes if I want and never accomplish anything. But the idea that like, okay, I'm gonna have to get scared to, for this to work. Like I'm gonna have to go to a scary place to get this to work. And then once you start investing in something, I think that is your calling and you're scared to do it, the universe will show up for you and be like, dude, you did something scary, we noticed.
And watch this. Like what? Watch what happens next? So when those moments started happening, I think I started really when I would hit a place of fear or resistance or a place that I was like, I don't like where, I don't know where I'm going or where this is going right now, and I'm afraid. I would be like, oh fuck I know something on the other. There's a cool surprise on the other side of this. There's a treat for me on the other side of this. And so I started getting like pretty hot and bothered to get into the scary stuff and that feeling of oh, I'm scared to do this. I have to do it now.
Yeah. And that was like, I think that's what really got you could feel the steam coming off the train like when that started happening. 'cause it was just chugging and idling and we were like, are we doing this? Are we not doing this? There's so much other work to do. And I was like, yeah let's do the other work.
I don't know about the show. And but once it all really started happening, going, I think probably the most pivotal moment was when I was in London and I think you had just looked at the Peterson as a location and we felt good about it. And then I was hanging out with my great friend and painter, Vince camp, and he's a friend of Vicki and Duchess at the bike shed.
And we were in the city look, going to museums, cruising around on Boris bikes and I was like, oh, let's go live a bike shed and I want to get another bike shed London shirt 'cause they don't have 'em in America. It was like my cool thing to have in la I got this London Bike Club, bike shop shirt. And so we get there and Dutch was there and I hadn't met him before and he's oh, I just, you're from la I just opened a place in la.
Both Vince and I's ears like went up and we were like, really? And he is yeah, there's like a 8,000 square foot event space there. And Vince and I was like, other ear goes up. We're like, really? And then he went on to do his thing and we sat down and ate and we both sat down, we're like, I should have my bike, I should have my show at the bike shed.
And so we were just like buzzing about that idea and about that possibility because again, it just being like the perfect fit. So then we finished our meal and I go in to go shopping and I look on the TV playing and there's like a bike shed la commercial on their TV in there. And I'm like, oh shit, that's go from my paintings.
So one of the guy who's in my paintings who's honestly the guy that wins most of the race is probably the most winningest rider in this class that I documented is in their commercial for their shop. The shop in la The LA Bike. Shit. I'm like, oh my God. You're not gonna get,
you can't get a bigger sign.
Yeah. You
can't get it better than that. So I was ri totally riding on a high the rest that day, and I think I called you and said, Hey we need to look into this. Yeah. And then it wasn't until a couple days later you went there and you're like, yeah, this is a hundred percent, this is the spot. So just stuff like that story is enough to like, that story's enough to carry the event.
But that's just one of the stories.
It keeps happening. It just
keeps happening. And I don't, it'll be interesting for the next show that we do this on because I'm like, it can it be this magical every time? Can I just create such a magical situation? Or can these situations be so insanely serendipitous and magical, every time I do them. 'cause if so that's fucking awesome. That's why I want to be an artist and why I want to share my art with the world is this incentive that I'm getting is greater than any payout I could get. Or selling the show out, you're just like, oh, this is what I'm, this is what I've always felt like I was supposed to do.
And this is the universe telling me like, we're here to make sure you keep doing it. Yeah. Yeah. That stuff is wild and it just, yeah, it just keeps happening all over. Today was the same where you're just like, why are you here when I'm here? This is so weird. At the framer, you're like, why am I, why did I show up at the same time as an interior designer is gonna help me share her great opinion about all my framing on my art.
Like, why are you here right now?
Stuff like that is is just buzzing. And all the times when we've thought, oh my God, this is way too expensive. We can't do it. And then. We find some work around, we find some alternative where that person is totally willing to compromise once they see what we're doing or find out enough about what we're doing.
I think that, I don't know, I think that one is a testament to the circle that we've gotten into. And two, I think it's just this is what I'm supposed to be doing and it's being delivered to me in a pretty easy way. And still the hardest part is myself. I love that the universe is making sure that the hardest part is still just myself.
Yeah. And me trying to overcome what I'm doing. 'cause I think if there are more challenges outside of what I need to work on personally, it would be so much harder.
And I think, so we met through the amazing Mark McGarry who connected us. He's one of your best friends. He's one of my, he and Elizabeth are some of my closest friends.
And I think when two people meet through great humans like that. And we keep finding other great humans who wanna work on this project. I think it's something that you and I share where it's if it's not an amazing crew to build something with, it's not as much fun.
And it doesn't
feel the same way.
Yeah. I think what's amazing. Yeah. I love when you can make a fast friend like that where you're like, I know this person. I know our mutual friends so well. They're like, I already love you and trust you. Yeah. I'm, I don't have to worry about that. And so you can take so much for me, so much time that I take to be like, okay, what is, how's this person gonna deal with this?
How's this person who really, this person is real shady? Yeah, totally. Like real, like it takes me a while to trust someone. And so when you have an amazing, incredible mutual friend that just speaks so highly, you're like, okay, we're dialed. Yeah. I don't have anything to worry about. And then using your network for PR or anything else I automatically feel the same way where I was like, all right.
Tara's super trustworthy. Anybody else in her circle, she's not gonna mess with anybody. That's not gonna deliver, not gonna be cool and not gonna be fun. And so I think we have this little microcosm that we're living in. And it wasn't up until recently that we had someone who didn't fit. Yeah. We interacted with someone who didn't fit and it was like, oh, whoa, this is, it was weird.
This is also a type of person that we haven't had to interact with at all during this whole process. And this seems, this is wild. This is wildly different. And we are really like, okay. Do we even need to talk about what just happened? No. Sick. Okay. Next. Next thing, next option. And even with Dutch and Vicki like getting in with them and their blue collar people and they're trying to be successful on their own and they're itching and scratching and like to see that, I saw a lot of the spectrum of okay, here I am investing all I have, hoping that this is successful and here are some other people investing, possibly all they have in something exponentially more gigantic.
Yeah. Than what I'm investing in. And like it made. It didn't make sense, but it gave me an immense amount of compassion where it's oh, okay. I now understand the price you're charging me, and I know you would want to charge me less if you could and you can't, and you're doing your best to be successful.
And
yeah, we're one night out of their 365 do.
Totally. You. Totally. And like I think it gave me an immense amount of compassion to be like. Understanding where we're negotiating with them from. Yeah. Where you're like, oh, you would give this to me. I truly believe you would give me this place.
They were so excited.
Yeah.
When we had the walkthrough with Fiona and Vicki when we were telling the story and they were freaking out that Go was in the paintings also and they were freaking out about who you knew and the connections and they started throwing all these other ideas back. And that's what I love.
Like I know when I have a new client intro call and my brain's going a mile a minute. Yeah. And I can't wait to start working on the project that it's gonna be good. And to meet people like them as well as Alex and Maggie, little Soko, who, when we talk to them, they're like, what about this and this and this?
And they wanna give you so much more 'cause they're so invested immediately. It's not even my show and it makes me so excited.
No, it's true. And I think once I saw that in them where it's okay, here's where. I can see where they have room to help. That's not monetarily. Yeah.
Like I realized that the opportunities that are developing as we do this first show together, like I've created something that is pretty priceless at this point and well worth the price of entry that it costs to have my show there that night. And I think for me, like I would rather invest money and know that I built a relationship and they know that I'm committed and they know that I'm serious and I'm like, it's the same reason you charge what you charge.
It's no one's going to pay that and not take it seriously, or no one's at a place in their life where they're like, maybe I'll give this a try. Like I think everybody should. Bet on themselves at some point. And I'm like, I think that first step is like starting to work with you where you're like, this is a big bet on myself.
Yeah.
If somebody told me like, I'm gonna give you that allowance a month for yourself, I wouldn't bet on that. But if I give it to someone else, I'm like, shit dude, you better do what you says. Like you're committed. But I think that was like, I think that was really, yeah. I was so glad we had that in person meeting with him.
'cause it felt really different before, before we went in there.
So you have been an artist since you were a kid, but you've gone through phases of ignoring it. Hiding it.
Mostly. Hi. Yeah. Hiding more than ignoring it, which is weird. Yeah, it was funny to just, so Kara just read and I wrote like my life story for this interview.
So it's fresh on our minds right now, which is great. But yeah, it's, it almost seems like a little murky now that. Part of my life when I like, wasn't sharing my art with the world as a young child, like as I'm talking like 10 to 15 or 10 to 20 probably. But yeah, so my parents were art teachers.
My mom taught art history, drawing and painting design, things like that. And at the high school level. So she helped put portfolios together for kids to go to college and everything. And that was like part of my life in a way that you're just like, this isn't special. This is just doesn't, everybody's parents have like drawings from high school kids all over their dinner table, to look at and watch her like, and she would talk and critique and I would, she would share it all with me.
And so I was just like, I would just observe and be like, holy shit, you're totally right. That is, that does look, so I was getting these like off the cuff lessons and art, but, and then my stepdad, he was a junior high teacher and he taught ceramics, photography and drawing, maybe drawing a painting too at the junior high level, which is not they don't take it quite as seriously then.
But he was an amazing creative dude too. And then built custom cars, hot rods, like at home on the weekends. And and yeah, that was like super creative people, like crazy creative people. But yeah so I had access to everything and if I was ever like. And we had so many books, like so many books of everybody, if I ever if we were watching a movie or something and there was a Picasso in the background and my mom would be like, how'd you see that Picasso?
I'd be like, oh yeah, that was cool. And then it'd be like PPP, like five books on my lap, like the Serious Picasso's life story. And I'd look through it and any artist I brought up, she would be like, oh yeah, they're in here and this and that. And so I really started to like, the romance of art in art history to me is something that like, didn't discover that until recently, how much I enjoyed that as a kid.
But yeah, if I ever had an interest in any medium like watercolor, she'd be like, here's watercolor set, here's watercolor brushes, here's watercolor paper, here's how you do it. And so I always had access to whatever I wanted to do. And it would always be like a bit of the your dad was the all star quarterback in high school and now he wants you to be the quarterback and you're like, oh, don't, no. And then you're the quarterback. And he is isn't it the best son? And you're like, oh, it's fine. Like a little too much pressure and excitement around it. And as a teenager you're like, this sucks. 'cause I need to do the absolute opposite of what my parents are telling me.
But is this kind of fun too? Is this fun and I am interested in this. So I started to hide it and be like, no, this is mine. I don't wanna be critiqued. I don't want to be told if it's good or not. Like I'm exploring it. And I wanted the freedom to explore it and I didn't.
I didn't have it. Not in a bad way. Like I know their intention was to help. And I know their intention was like, we should make our son a great artist because being a great artist is awesome. But I was like, I don't, I kind of wanna just do my own thing.
And at the same time you started having another passion.
Yeah. And so then I was lived in Idaho when this is all happening. So I started skiing with my dad. And my stepdad was a ski team coach too. And we were pretty active, just outdoors stuff. So I started snowboarding and I was like skateboarding before that. And then snowboarding was a new thing.
This is like early mid nineties, may, early nineties probably when I was first starting to do it. And so I just absolutely fell in love with that. And I was like, this is my thing. I'm gonna be a professional snowboarder. And which is like totally realistic. I don't know, when I, when kids say I wanna be a Formula One driver, you're like go for it, dude.
It probably won't happen, but go for it, dude.
And in the early nineties it wasn't so unrealistic Yeah. To become a person to work. Yeah.
There was. And it's so interesting.
200 that you were up against versus over many there are now.
Yeah. And like the level that the sport is at too. That's something I talked to a friend of mine recently, James Jackson, who's like a professional snowboard coach.
Like he coaches professional, like X Games winning Olympic medal, winning snowboarders. And I'm like, what do you do? What are they doing man? He's I don't even know. He's I'm scared of where the sport's going. And I was like, oh my God, aren't you so glad we were in it when we were in it?
And he's like the things we could do to become a noteworthy snow order were like, so you wouldn't even show up on the map now. You wouldn't even be in the top 30% probably of professionals at this point. You'd be what every
kid's doing on a second or something? Yeah, totally.
They're like, oh yeah, I learned that a couple years ago.
I was really shy as a kid, super shy. And then I would be insanely wacky and obnoxious once you got to know me. But I remember my telling my dad, I think I wanna go to the snowboard camp. And he's by yourself? And I'm like. Yeah, man. And he, I remember him just being like, holy shit, he must really love this.
If he's willing to go so far out of his comfort zone to go stay at some camp with a bunch of teenage kids, he doesn't know anybody like he, this is how bad he wants it. So I started doing that when I was like 14 or 15 and it just became like this amazing thing that I would do every year. And I was so in love with it.
I'm like, you get to go snowboard in the summer, it's awesome. But I started making great friends there and the last year I went, I met this group of guys that all lived in New Hampshire. And so this is how Mark McGarry comes into my life, the year, the next year, and the future of this. So I meet these guys.
And they're my counselors. And there two of them were my counselors, Mike Ziel, Brian Barb, and then a couple other guys, and they're all roommates. And I'm like, how is this possible? There's six of you guys now that they're roommates. And so I started inquiring more like, how are you guys?
And I'm 18 at this point, and they're early, barely 20, 21 maybe. And I'm like, how do you guys have so many roommates? Where do you guys live? And they're like, oh dude, we live in this like abandoned ski resort that got turned into like a bed and breakfast or a dorm or something. And there's 24 rooms or something.
And we all live there and just snowboard. And like when it snows, we can ride in our backyard. It's a whole mountain. And I was like, oh, you gotta be kidding me. This is like the coolest thing ever. And they're It's your Disneyland. Yeah. I was like, this is what, this is this is perfect. And I had been getting, I don't wanna say a lot of pressure, but some pressure from my parents about you should go to college.
You should figure out what you wanna do with your life. Like you should pursue a career. And not just be a ski bum in their world. You're like a ski bum. Because really someone making a career outta snowboarding was like. Your parents wouldn't know that people were actually really doing that.
And it's actually people are making a lot of money doing it. At that time it was
Just starting to, and yeah, it was on that projection of just like, where is it gonna plateau? It's absolutely nuking into space as far as popularity and like people loving it. It was a really cool time to be involved with this sport, I think.
But, so I had gone for two sessions that year. 'cause it was my last year in like my graduation present. My, I remember in hindsight, this is funny 'cause I go to Europe so much now, but my mom was like, don't you want to go to Europe for your high school? And I was like, hell no. I want to go to camp for two, two sessions, which is like 20 days, so almost a whole month.
So anyway, I was there for almost a whole month and I became really good friends with these counselors and I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with my life. I don't know if I want to go to college. I don't know what I'll go to college for, but I just want to know more. And I just wanna live my life and do something that's not like staying at home in a, in Boise.
And they were like, oh, you should just come live with us out there, and it's so fun. And I was like, huh, yeah, maybe I will. And I just kept chewing on it, thinking about it. And then I remember going home from camp that summer and calling them no cell phones, calling them at the lodge and having a camper answer.
And I'm like, Hey, can you find Mike or Brian? And they're like hold on. And then you could hear him like yelling Mike. And then they answer the phone and they're like, yeah. And I'm like, Hey, this is Andrew. Like that camper that you're talking, I think I want to go move with you guys. And I could hear him be like, Brian Bryan, he's, Andrew's gonna come live with us.
Like they were pumped. And yeah, it was an incredible, it was an incredible opportunity that at the time you're so naive that you don't think about I had no job out there. I had no. I didn't know what this place looked like. I didn't know who all the other 20 people were that lived there, but it was just like, yeah, let's go.
And it was insane. It was an insane thing to do. And also coming from the west coast back to the East coast is the complete opposite of what everyone in winter sports would ever do, the writing is exponentially worse the further east you get. So many of my friends that I was telling her to do this, they're like, what are you talking about?
What are you thinking? And I was like, I don't know. It's different. And I remember meeting someone who was from Pennsylvania and moved to Utah and lived with Utah at Snow with them a bunch, and Utah, and he's dude the snow's this hard. And he just tapped his coffee table and I was like, I remember just being like, oh, he's probably, he's right.
Yeah. He's right. But yeah, it was like, I don't care. Like I, I just wanted to get away from home, like I just want to try something new and have an adventure. And it was incredible. It was like fully life changing, experience and kind of what projected me into, I think, projected me into celebrating my individuality.
Is there a theme? Yeah. That every time you make these big shifts in your life, you find people on the other side who are excited to support you and bring you in.
Yeah, I, it's interesting. I think, again, like me being, the one thing in my way is I'm mole and like I think about stuff for really I'll chew on it for so long and as I love problem solving.
I love thinking about all the options for possible outcomes, possible solutions. Like I really love that and I think that's why I've gotten so good at the careers that I'm in is that there are so many different ways to solve a problem and I just love to get outta the box and be like, how far outta the box can we get to try to find a solution for this?
And. And I think that's an asset, but also sometimes it's like a huge deficit where you're like, I should have just, I could have told 'em then, like I knew then that I was gonna do it. But I think a lot of times what will get in my way of those situations and why I think it gets celebrated so hard when I finally do it, is I have a sense of a pretty low sense of self worth.
And I'm thinking like, I'm a burden to these guys. They were just saying that to be kind. They didn't really mean it. I'll get in my head about those things, about nobody really wants look at me I'm like so hyperactive and wild and crazy and then but also shy and it's ridiculous.
Who would wanna hang out with me? That's, meanwhile,
it's like everyone,
meanwhile everybody, yeah. Meanwhile everyone loves it. They're cracking up. I'm doing ridiculous things and it's fun, but in my head I'm just like that I'm overwhelming. Like people don't like it, but the reason why I think it was so hardly celebrated was I was like, I feel uncomfortable asking for this.
'cause I don't think they really want to do it. And then you're expecting 'em to be like, oh yeah, we don't know. Maybe it'll work out. Let us look into it. But when they're like, oh, he's doing it, he's going with it, you're like, oh shit. It's such a memorable moment. And I think probably because I thought about it and talked about it so much to them, I remember for days just being like, I think I like, I really think I might do that.
Are you guys serious? And so I think I'd really gotten a bit of their hopes up and they, and also like I can look now, you know what's cool is to look down from yourself being a mentor and some young kid who's excited, has a good head on their shoulders. You can tell they're like, they have it. Yeah, they have that thing and.
You want to be an advocate for them and you want to show them like here's some cool fucking ways to live your life that maybe your parents didn't tell you about, but get a load of this. Like you can live at a lodge and just snowboard whenever you want your backyard. And we'll party and we'll go to the mountain all together like 10 of us and we'll just have the most insane day snowboarding.
So you were in New Hampshire snowboarding for a while, and then you've told me that you realized you were seeing other people who oh, just had some extra magic and you're
like,
I might need to shift what I think my opportunities are.
Yeah. So i's. I had an incredible time that year. It was one year, and it was the last year that, it's called the Lodge.
It was the last year that the lodge existed, that all these guys stayed there. You're hucking yourself off stuff, like that's what you're trying to do for a job. Yeah. And that was when it started change for me, where I was like, I'm getting hurt. I'm getting concussions. I'm watching these guys around me that are like fearless and land on their feet.
They're like, fearless cats. And I was like, I am not a fearless cat.
I'm a scared cat. I'm scared and I'm
getting hurt a lot. And this isn't that much fun for me. And like I could see that bottom coming up and being like, all right, what? What am I gonna do? This career isn't gonna work out.
I don't want to be in the industry. I didn't want to be a team manager or like working somewhere like that. So I was really like thinking, oh, what am I gonna do with my life? And not in any rush. Like I think I probably took a year of being like, I'll keep snowboarding, I'll keep doing odd jobs.
And it's a really fun life. It's a really fun life to snowboard as much as you can. Everyone loves that idea of that life. But I started thinking like, ah, working on cars was really fun. So my stepdad was this huge man, I'm six three. He was probably six six, but like really, but like a shit house.
Like huge dude. Like enormous man, not fat, not overweight, but he was just this big bulky guy. Like when he gets in the car, that Rob got in the car, like he was this master dean. He just had hands, like a frying pan. And I remember like working on stuff. On this car. It was a 1950 Ford shoebox coop.
And there were some areas he couldn't get in, like under the dash and around the carburetors or like little detailed things. And he'd just be like, can you come help me out with this? And I'd be like, whatever. Yeah. And naturally, as a 14-year-old kid, like you can't like your stepdad, like you can't like what your parents like and you can't like your stepdad.
For sure. And these moments that I had in hindsight were incredible bonding moments that I had with my stepdad. And as hard as I wanted to dislike him, he was the coolest fucking dude. Yeah. There was nothing I could do. Like I was gonna this dude 'cause he was so great. I would do work with him on that stuff.
And it was really fun. And we would drive, we'd work on the car and then he'd go drive it around and he'd be like, oh, this is super cool. I can't help it. This is really cool. And so we would get to use, since he was a teacher, we would get to use the like school body shop and the school shop that they teach kids how to work on cars.
We get to use that space, but I would only get to go there on the weekend and I was like junior high, middle school. And so there'd be like high school kids there, sometimes welding and stuff. And I'd be like, oh my God, this place is super cool. And just to see all the projects and everything that was going on, I was like, that was, at the time you're like I'm into snowboarding.
I'm not into this. But in hindsight you're like, why are all these vivid images of this place and these things being like flashing in my mind?
Yeah.
Then also at that time, like Monster Garage was just starting and so I was like, oh, holy, like this is supposed to happen in California. This is so fucking cool.
This is I think what I want to do. Then I was so lucky because Rob had grown up with boycotting, boycotting ISS from Gooding Idaho, like tiny town. I don't know if there's even a thousand people that live in this town. It's like middle of nowhere Idaho. And so he's very famous, hot rod builder American Hot Rod was his show.
So anyway I can make the story so much longer, but Boyd owed Rob a huge favor because he had found this great painter from Idaho who was a really good friend of my dad's, my stepdad's and. So I said, Hey, do you think I could get a job at boys? And he is oh. It was like, it's, it was that moment where like you tell your quarterback dad that you want to be a quarterback and if you can get on the team that he's a coach on or something, so he was just like he must have just called him immediately after we hung up, and so he made the call and he is yeah bring the kid down. And it was awesome 'cause my dad was so honest and he was just like, kid doesn't know anything. Like he knows how to help me. He knows how to do some things here.
And boy was like, don't worry about it. Send him down. And so once I got down there and same thing, like I had probably $500 in my pocket and I just packed up all my stuff and moved to La Habra, California with I didn't know where I was gonna live. I didn't know, I just moved there and I was even staying in Leucadia at commuting for a while at a friend's house.
And so yeah, just that stuff as a kid that like. It seems fearless, but I think it was just naivety. I just didn't know how many things didn't make sense about what I was doing, but I had that opportunity and I was taking it. Charlie Hutton, who was the painter there at the time, was my stepdad's good friend and had gotten him the job there.
So as soon as he found out that, like Rob was my stepdad, it was like, say no more. You're mine, you're my kid, basically now. And Charlie and I just hit it off and we like, were like family. We became brothers, totally fell in love with each other and just had so much fun working together. And it's one of those places where like you're, when you work in that industry, especially in hot rod and custom car culture you're nothing else like that is what you do.
It's your identity. It's a 60, 8,000 hour a week commitment and you don't, you complain about wanting to go surf or wanting to get sleep or thing, but you don't stop working that much. Like you just, is
it because of the, like the community or the tribe you're in? Like everyone, it's what everyone's doing.
For the bigger project or the I hole, I don't,
I mean there was just these crazy deadlines that they would have for the show to make like entertainment.
Yeah.
But even when I was working at companies that weren't, didn't have shows, it's just that industry where it's oh, you always have to do this.
It's so much work. Like it's really just so much work and there's no way to get around it. Like it's manual labor. You're banging metal with a hammer. Yeah. Lit in a literal sense for a long time. And you're just sanding, you're just sanding and sanding to get it perfect.
So it just takes a, it just takes a lot of work. And if you want to compress that time, and I think almost sometimes in that industry, you have to compress the time to make it affordable. Like you have to push. Yeah. If you take the time you need, it takes too long and you're upside down. And there's very few places.
I think Chip is probably one of the only places that's we're gonna take a year, we're gonna take three years to build like a ridler level car and we don't care. Yeah. And the owner basically has to be like, I don't care either. I don't care how much it's gonna cost.
Because you have to float it until you can.
Yeah, exactly. Flip it.
And it's the same it's the same with what we're doing with my show. Yeah. It's like you have to put some mark in the sand and be like, all right, this is when we're gonna try to get this done. But as the project gets bigger, as the expectations get bigger, as the deadline gets bigger, and then as that industry is unique in the automotive industry. Custom cars are unique in the automotive industry because it's very designed as you go. Where like when I got into prototype stuff, the designers would have it finished. Like top to tail. Yeah. Everything would be figured out, interior, exterior, and then it would get sent to us and we'd have to fabricate it.
Then occasionally they'd pop in and be like, last minute we wanna try to change this. How much is it gonna cost first? And then we'd negotiate with them. But custom car stuff is do you think this would look cool? And we'd be like, yeah, I think that'll look cool. And then you hack this car apart and melt it back together and bang the crap out of it.
And then you're like, oh, we should move. We should move that one thing just a little more. Maybe we need to move that over there to really make it look great. And then you're cutting the car all apart again and banging it back together.
Yeah,
and working for Chip was the first person I worked with that this was just absolutely crazy making because he had no.
He was, and the reason why he is so great and makes such great cars is that he's unwilling to apply logic. I hate to say it that way, but he would be like, we gotta change this. I've been thinking about it for a couple days and you're like, dude, this is putting us back like two, three weeks, four we a month back of starting over.
Or starting over know it's not gonna work. Or it could be better you, if it bugs you like that, you can't ignore it,
dude. That's the thing. And I really. I loved working for him. 'cause I understood that that's why his cars look like they do, because every other dude that's building those cars didn't do that.
Refused to do that. Said it's not practical. It's not realistic, it's not affordable. It's fucking stu It's a stupid idea, but it will look, it would look so cool. Chip never, chip is not, chip is going to sleep tonight with no concern over how much cooler something could have looked like. He made it.
He made it. He did that to it. Yeah. As inconvenient as it was. I remember being in the spray booth at 11 at night and I was about to paint all night and he shows up and I'm like, sick. He's coming to rally me and tell me he's stoked and and he's we gotta move like. This belt line, like we're, you need to move this belt line down.
So like all the surfacing, everything, we had to grind it all off, hammer it down, re and I was like, dude, I'm painting this car. Like I'm literally, I was just about to put base coat on it and he is ew. Like we gotta do it. And I just remember like I riding my bike home and I'm gonna cry too.
Like I can't do this. This is crazy making. And I learned so much from him at that job too, because it wasn't personal. It wasn't, I would so quickly be like, what did I do wrong that i, it's my fault that's that way and I'm gonna get fired for this. And really it was like, no, he just had to see it there to know he had to move it down.
The interesting thing that, and I didn't get to explore this so much in the custom car world 'cause they just don't really do it so much. But kinetics I got really into and figuring out how to collapse seats and double armatures and things that like really move and operate mechanically.
That stuff was like, where I was just like, this is the coolest shit ever. And at the time, I'm skipping a forward a little bit, but at the time, at five Axis when my boss saw what I was doing and how I could figure these things out, he was like, oh, holy shit. Like he really lit up and he is do you think we can and every project was like, okay, but how can we actuate this and how can we make this pop out of the trunk and do that?
And like the client wants this door to open in some untraditional way, let's prototypes and stuff out and figure it out.
That's what I think is so interesting about you as a human, but especially going into this show, is that your art style is very much inspired by traditional renaissance painters.
Yeah. And all of the great painters from that time weren't. Only a painter, right? They were an engineer. They were making prototypes. They were,
That's what's amazing about the Renaissance. That's what the Renaissance was just like, if you could be creative, you could be creative and you weren't just making sets and making writing plays and playing songs.
And like DaVinci's an amazing dude for that reason. And one thing I, one thing I really like about DaVinci's life is at when he was alive, painting was much more profitable and there was a much higher demand for painting than there was for an excellent engineer. And I think he spent a lot of his life wanting to be an excellent engineer.
He really loved military engineering, developing military weapons and things like that. But bridges and tons of really cool stuff. His sketchbooks are incredible if you ever have a chance to look at them. But, I think he wanted to be an engineer more than he wanted to be a painter. And when I realized that about him, I thought, what a lucky son of a bitch to live at a time when like people didn't like engineering.
Engineering wasn't that fundamental, but holy shit, you can paint. We need you to paint.
It's the opposite of now. It was
the opposite of now. And so for me now to be like, I could be a full-time engineer for the rest of my life, but like I'm a painter and I love engineering and I think it'll always be a part of my life, but I'm a painter and I'm like, damn it da Vinci, we could have traded man.
But yeah, skipping really far forward. But I think like one thing I do. I think is worth mentioning. And one thing that this connects to, as I was writing my live story too, this connects to it. Where in snowing you have to try something. A trick. Learning a new trick. So many times, like so many times. And the first time you land it, it's probably an accident.
Yeah you're gonna get lucky a couple times and land it. But it's so much getting off, getting up and dusting yourself off and finding your goggles and your mitten and whatever else went flying and go try it again. And in prototyping too, it's the same way. Like we use a term in the industry called fail early, where it's okay, all ideas are on the table.
How are we gonna solve this problem? Everybody has a voice. Everybody puts up, okay, what's our three to five options? Realistic options, plausible options, boom. Okay, let's start testing those out. Let's find out what fails. And so then you start testing those five options. Maybe you're down to two or three, and then you're like, okay.
To suss out these next two or three, we're gonna have to make some investments. We're gonna have to buy or build or machine or mill some stuff out. So it's okay, which one do we think is the best option? It's all based on plausibility in a very narrow success rate that it's gonna work. But yeah, like all these jobs that I was doing, I was getting so comfortable with failure and things not working, and having a really peaceful understanding of like how long it takes for something to work and that you're not, you're probably not gonna get it right in your first time.
And sometimes you get all the way to the end of an ideation and it bo and you're like, oh fuck, this is not gonna work, dude. And then you gotta go back and be like, okay, what were our two and three options and knowing what we know now, do, are those gonna work? And do we need to reinvent everything here? I think I re, I don't wanna say regret, but I'm surprised that I didn't connect those dots.
With my relationship with art as a career, because I would spend so much time like making this and people are gonna buy it and people are gonna love it. And then crickets. And you're like, shit, what did I do? What is wrong with me? What is wrong with my art? No one loves me. And really you're just trying something and it failed and that was it.
And there's so many parts to that.
Oh, totally. Yeah. It's
not just the work of art, it's like how did you sell it and who did you talk to? Oh, totally. And what price was it? And does anyone know it exists?
Exactly. And like the. So watching the moments I'm having now self-discovery of be like, I have all the tools.
I've been implementing them for fucking decades, and like, why am I not seeing, why am I not seeing that here? And why am I not having the same approach? So yeah, I think learning to do that now and approach it from that direction where this is gonna, this is gonna fail until it works. And buckle the fuck up.
And I think it's like the gift and the curse of the creative where you're like, if I could stop doing this, like this hurts so bad, if I could stop doing this, I would, 'cause this sucks. And then you wake up the next morning, you're like, ah. Crap. I need to make something.
Go ahead.
I think there's a lot of people come to me and they want a very specific formula for just make it work.
Yeah. And there are parts of business that there are best practice formulas that we can try and implement for a specific business, but you are also a variable in that formula. So if you don't like the steps, like I've had some clients, you've been one of them that's been like, I don't wanna do that plan.
I'm like I know that this homework, you're like, Nope, it's not for me. And it's okay. But there's things we know that we can borrow and steal from people who have been successful.
And then to your point, there's this whole space where, because your products and your approach and your personality and all these are variables that have never been put into this formula before.
Sure.
Sure.
We're gonna have to see what happens. Totally. And I think that really scares a lot of people. So I'm glad you're bringing it up because there's so many people listening who have a business and they don't know. They think it's them.
Yeah. Oh yeah.
And it's not, it's just like we haven't found the right combination of people or.
Processes or we haven't opened the right door yet.
I think there's so many things in our life, there's so many comparisons you can make. But look at something like baking a cake, right? Where you can mix your flour, you can make your eggs, you can have all the ingredients you need to make a cake, and then you like have your oven set to like a thousand degrees for six hours and you fuck everything's, you don't have a cake anymore.
Just one piece, just one little variable, or like you're making a cake and you mix up your salt and sugar and you make a cake with salt and then you cook it perfectly and it's disgusting. So that looking at it as an ingredient list and as a process and then almost algorithmically, you can be like, okay, if this template's working for, like for me to say the word business funnel is hilarious because I'm not gonna act like I didn't know that word three months ago because I a hundred percent didn't.
But to look at someone, do a webinar on business models, generic business models, and be like, this is a business funnel. Nothing is successful without a business funnel. Like not, no one's making money. Without a business funnel, whether you are doing it accidentally. Or not, like you can be consciously aware of your business funnel and investing in developing it, or you can just be like accidentally stumbling through it or have it pre-set in somehow, whether it's your family's business or something like that, where you like inherited a business funnel and then you can just, it still exists, dude.
It still exists and you can change elements inside of it. Like something that seems really exciting to me, take a movie like The Bear or something since it's such a huge part of common culture is like you, if you took a better restaurant that he inherited and then he could just build off of that.
Like obviously it's way better to make a movie that's absolute dumpster fire of a restaurant and then have them try to make a Michelin Star restaurant out of it. But if you just took a good family business restaurant that was working really well, had people, customers that were coming for years and you just changed a few elements and made it your own and and shifted a couple things and kept the classics, it's boom, you're expand. Making, reinventing some a business funnel that totally works. But it's interesting for me that I look at my engineering work as I've never had to make a business funnel for that, but if I needed work, my phone would ring.
Yeah.
And I never, you didn't realize you work in
the funnel? Dude,
I don't have a website I don't like, I don't have, yeah, I don't have anyone making calls. I'm not on LinkedIn. Like no one knows my business, my current business as an engineer, fabricator, and whenever I need work, the phone rings.
It's because if it's not who you know, it's who knows you.
And
it's a reputation. Like it took me,
y
how of 20 years now that I've been doing this. It took me 20 years and I had to work super hard and be super pro and be really easy to work with to survive that industry. And that was how I developed my business funnel, unknowingly unknowingly to me.
But to look at okay, we're building one from scratch, that's totally new, totally different. And I've never been cognizant that it's like what I'm doing. It makes it really interesting.
So obviously you were on the Powerful Ladies podcast.
Yeah.
As one of our powerful gentlemen.
Yeah. What does being powerful mean to you?
Oh, shit. I was wondering what the hard hitting questions were gonna be. No, I think I was nervous about if she asked me about business, she's gonna be in trouble if I'm on this podcast. That if you're listening to this and you think I'm gonna help you with your business, you're in trouble.
You can confide with me in how bad all of our, my business is going. But anyway, on topic, what is powerful to me, I think, power's an interesting word. I think for me it's being resilient. And coming back every time, fall down five times, stand up six. Like that to me is a huge asset of mine that I'll have.
But also is there power and compassion, like finding compassion and compromise and like finding, I think my personality, I'm very much the wet blanket who's okay, who's upset in the room? Why are they upset? How do I qualm this and get every, everybody needs to be cool if I'm in the room like nobody's upset we're everybody's cool and that's probably my greatest power.
And if someone's upset, I'm like, I'm cooling that guy out. That is not an option for him, for whoever to be upset. So it works really. I am really powerful in meetings and like in debates and conversations about what we're gonna do or how we're gonna solve a problem. 'cause I'm like, okay, somebody's upset right now, and we need, I need to let this person know that it's not personal.
This is, like I'll really help a lot in meetings. And I found myself being like, every time there's a meeting where shit goes down, I wasn't in it.
Yeah.
And I'm like, I don't think that's an accident. I don't think that's just something weird that happens. A coincidence, especially for men, when we first hear the world powerful, we think like alpha bossy.
Yelling and screaming. Finger wagon like that.
Aggressive.
Aggressive, yeah. Is like what men would go to when they think of the word powerful. And I'm not that dude, like for sure. I'm not that dude. So it's try to, it's really interesting. Think about what my version of that is, but I think finding your own power is I.
How you become a powerful person, right? Like you can try to be, you can try to find how someone else is powerful and be like, oh, I want that, but that's not yours. That's not, that's their power. That's not your power. When you see someone operating like in their place of power, it's fucking awesome.
It's awesome to watch. It's awesome to be a part of. It's never something that you're like, whoa, with the power, like it's really I think when people are using power the right way it's a beneficial to everyone. I think for me it's probably like how I would define it the best without I don't talk about myself very much and it's tough to talk about myself.
So I like how I just make generalizations of what I think you did. Power is cool. You did, but yeah, that's how I would like to explain my power is like finding the way to make everyone. Grow and be better from what I'm doing or we are doing.
To me that's like how I feel. Powerful.
What are you most proud of?
Oof. I love how hard I work for a lot of stuff. I love that I developed an ethic that's you're not, nobody's handing this to you. And that's what I always love about people talking about sport. Like I could listen to Kobe Bryant talk about like how to get good at basketball or Michael Jordan even too.
I think Kobe maybe was a little more succinct about it, but when he would say things like, if I get up two hours earlier, I can get two hours more practicing than everybody else. And then you add that up to a year and that's half a year more practice than everybody else. And if I do that for five years, you'll never catch me.
Yeah. You'll never catch me. And I think learning that early and being like, all right dude, if I want to be, get a drawing and painting. Clock in, do the work 10,000 hours, do the work, go paint. If you ever want to bum an artist out, tell 'em I have a God-given ability. 'cause it's fuck you buddy.
I worked super hard. Like I wish God had given me this ability 'cause it would've been so much easier than what I went through to develop this skill. So for the record to any other artist, they're all sighing relief right now. Don't ever say that to an artist or don't say you have a natural talent. 'cause we didn't.
We don't. I don't have any, I had a great head start with my family that I was born into. I had a great head start. But I don't have a God-given ability. I don't have a natural talent. I fucking work my ass off.
There's nothing in it. You think that is a special something that you have like even if something I think we undervalue in ourselves is how we see the world and we don't realize that we see it differently. Do you see shadows differently than somebody else might, or the light, like you really think all of it. You,
I learned it. I learned it all.
You had to crack that to get all of it
learned.
I learned it all. I think if I wanna really, where I could say that, have, I have a natural talent for this is that I'm sensitive and I'm observant.
More than other people, ally
is the words that came to mind. But I'm not, I'm so sensitive. I perceive so much shit. I watch people I've and I've had it all my life.
I read body language. I'm always checking in are they comfortable? Are they uncomfortable? Are they okay? But you develop these hyper awarenesses to things. And I don't know if that's something I born with or it's something I learned like an. The comparison I like to use the most with art and creativity is like, you want to get stronger.
You wanna lift weights, or you want to have an A, you're a man and you wanna have a strong body.
And you're a super scrawny, little wimpy kid. And you go into the gym and you see some dude just like ripping bench pressing like 400 pounds. You're like, holy shit, dude. That guy rips. And you're like, okay, I'm gonna just, I gotta do the bar.
Yeah.
And everybody's okay with that. Nobody walks in and sees a wimpy kid like pushing the bar and is dude put 300 pounds on there. Everybody's cool with that. Creativity is the exact same way. When people look at what I do, they go, holy shit, how did you do that? How did you make that, where did you come up with that idea?
And I'm like, dude, I've been pushing weight for 25 years, 30 years. I've been pushing weight, I've been doing squats, bench pressing, everything. And like it looks impossible.
Yeah.
And it people don't connect that dot, we're like. No, I was never, I was bad at art. I was totally bad at art for a long time. For a long time in my life.
And like I had to lift the weights, I had to do the work. The only thing is you don't look at me and see, oh, he looks different.
And
that quantifies why he can lift 300 pounds.
That's why it's so valuable too, when people can have seen the journey that you've been on.
Yeah.
It's so the same thing I think, for anyone who is in business, because you see people being successful and you're like, oh, totally.
Oh, they must like overnight success, dude, if you wanna punch you in the face because you're like, wait, what?
Yeah,
I've been working a hundred hours for 10 years. Yeah. For 10 years. Suck it.
This is my fifth business. I've been bankrupt three times. I'm upside down on two credit cards. No, this is not yeah.
No, I totally agree. And I think but. I'll always be an advocate for that perspective on creativity because I think people never give it, people never take that perspective on it, and they just think I don't have it. I don't have it.
It's, yeah. 'cause you think about people having at least a leaning towards being better at it.
Like you're Yeah, and I don't know why we do this in the US in particular. It's very German of us to be like, oh, you're supposed to be a mathematician. You're supposed to be an artist. You're supposed take this
personality test.
And they make you in Germany you do that, like to figure out what high school you're gonna go to.
And
no,
it's, I don't know why we cut people off so early in what your path could be.
Yeah.
I think it's, thank you. It's why I have a job because I get to tell people to un to give those things up. They could still do it. It's not too
late. No, I totally agree. And I think one thing I think about a lot and then I'll come back to working with Chip 'cause this, I can connect these dots.
One thing I think about a lot, and there's studies that show this, that young children 6, 7, 8. Nine. They have immense curiosity. They're becoming more dexterous. They can begin to get pretty good at art. And then there's this turning point of when they become self-aware and self-judgment and shame enters their life and they think, oh, the kid next to me is drawing better than me.
I shouldn't be an artist. And their ability gets squashed, right there. Is that a word? Swamped? It is squashed. Squashed. But I want a gentle qua squashed.
A smooshed.
But yeah. And so it can extinguish their creativity when they start to become self-aware. So one of the things that is incredible about Renaissance artists is that many of them were fostered as 10 year olds, 12 year olds like Bernini did, was Bernini was doing.
Modern, incredible human portraits at 13, 14, 15, like museum quality in churches in Rome as a 13-year-old. And his father was a sculpture. And so there's, same with Michelangelo. Da Vinci was a little later starter, but he started early too. And you see this a lot with artists of that time. And I wonder, is this what gave them this insane catapulting launch into creativity where they never got hit in the Achilles.
They never got smooshed. They never got smooched, dude. They never got smoked, dude. They never, they were just fostered all along and they say, Hey, you like this. You're good at this. You don't have self-awareness or judgment yet. We're going, we're sending you to school already, or you're gonna work under Botticelli, like you're gonna work under some incredible artists.
And foster that. It's, and not
only was there no social media, there was. What, 20 other people in your village that you had to compare against. Yeah.
You had to send them outta town sometimes, like you're going away from your family as a 13-year-old to learn how to be an artist now. 'cause you're good and you're into it now.
Your world was so small, there was just so small, less. So much less comparison.
Yeah. I wish that was maybe being fostered more in younger generations and coming up and supporting that. And the other thing too is that like it's it's also very perishable. Like it's so much like going to the gym where if you don't go for a couple weeks, if I'm not drawing for a couple weeks, I'm bad at it.
It's like going back to spin
class and you're like,
It takes me a couple shitty drawings to get back caught up in feeling like, okay, cool, I'm back on top of the ball again. And another really frustrating thing is painting doesn't support drawing. And drawing doesn't support painting. So if I'm painting a lot in the back of my mind, I'm like, my drawings are falling apart right now.
Like I need to just sketch something. And when I'm drawing a lot, I'm like, just get, just paint something just black and white. Like it doesn't even matter. Just paint something so you can be like quick with the brush. For that thing. It's like a really, it's a, you have to be a bit masochistic and you have to love, just it's not fun.
It's not gonna be fun a lot.
And I think that's also coming back to your show it's very similar to these guys that you're following who dedicate their weekends to racing a vintage sport.
Yeah. That
they have to. Build things. They have to get creative about their equipment sometimes.
Yeah.
Parts are hard to find. Like it's, y
You're only doing it because you love it. Yeah. There's no logical reason to do it otherwise their
wives are pissed about it. Nobody, they all got hurt one time and they're my age, like they're not young bucks that spring back. But yeah, it's, it totally, it's totally a passion project for them and I think that's what I was really drawn to as well, where I was like, there's no reason for them to do this.
Other than that. They just really like it and really think it's cool. And to me, these guys that I work with were mentors and I looked up to them so much and any minute I got to hang or spend with them, I was just like, ah. They're so cool. They know so much and they know how to make such cool stuff.
All their cars, everything they've built is just so cool. And so that crosses over to them racing their motorcycles where yeah, they want to get the custom Harley Davidson shirt so it matches from the 1920s and yeah, they want to get the custom leathers made that match from the 1920s too.
So it's like they work out or oh, they like these pants from the seventies. So they match that up and then yeah, they just really like. It's a ref, it's a creation. Like they're fully super creative dudes. Yeah. To build this whole lookout and have their helmets and bikes custom painted to match and pinstriped out.
And it's just, I see it and I'm like, that's perfect. It's perfect.
Then you go and race with the risk that you're gonna ruin it all.
So you're gonna put it in the dirt. Yeah. Any lap. Yeah. No, it's totally true. And like they build it to do that. And there's no oh, what if I mess it up?
It's no, I built this for this and that's what it's for.
And then we get to keep tinkering and do it again and prolong on this whole experience.
Yeah. I saw these guys hanging out on their motorcycles and I'm like, holy shit. Those are genre paintings. Like those are genre paintings. And that's, I think what really got me excited about it was I felt that callback to there they are, like there's a genre painting and that fits in with.
Me wanting to create timeless art that people don't know. Like these paintings when you see them, I was really deliberate to where like you don't know if they're from, you don't know if they're racing new bikes in 1930 or if it was last summer, like I take phones out and I'll switch. If it's a popup tent or a new van or something, I'll switch it out to try to make it look generic and not timeless time and look timeless but making a timeless look is so much harder than I thought.
There are moments where like I'm really stuck here. Like I really don't know how to do this without this super contemporary thing here. And so I had a lot of really creative, I had to get super creative and come up with ways to overcome okay, what is that thing? And did that exist back then?
And how can I make it look like something that exists back then?
And I think the work that you do, not just this collection, but your approach to art in general. It feels so familiar and comforting and it feels like it has so much depth and it's so different than what most contemporary art is looking like Uhhuh, that so much of modern art, it feels a little emotionless.
Sure.
Where what you create feels so familiar. Like you could step into it, which museums all the time, but you don't see people doing it now so much.
And there's elements of really feeling like you're waiting for. It's like when you watch Hogwarts or the the entire Harry Potter se Potter series and the picture moves and you're not expecting it to I'm waiting for your paintings to move, which is such a cool, 'cause you, you wanna stare at it longer.
Wait, is it gonna go?
Is it gonna move? I don't wanna miss it.
Like you think like when the guys are working on the bikes, are they gonna turn their head and look at you because you really feel like it's that fraction of a second you're peeking into. Where, so much is happening before and after, and so I just that you don't get that feeling with so much art today.
That's an incredible compliment. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Yeah. I think what was really fun about those paintings was I was familiar enough with those guys that I could I love to be invisible. Just be the fly on the wall and observing and it's a hundred percent a favorite pastime of mine.
That's probably why I love like a house party way more than a club or something. 'cause I can just hang out in the kitchen at a house party and be like, okay, Uhhuh. All right. I think I know what's going on in this room.
All the tea. Yeah,
dude. Yeah. And it's that's what's fun for me.
But I liked those paintings because for all those reasons where it's like you feel like at any minute you could sneeze and they would all look and be like, you're interrupting
Yes.
This perfect natural or naturally orchestrated like event that's happening. And I, yeah, I think that's I think we're always looking for, I think modern art, contemporary art, it's really hard to not fall into a gimmick and be like.
Oh, this is what's hot right now. Or like and not dogging on street art or anything. 'cause I think street art's incredible, and I think there are people that are doing it really well and really crossing it over and visually it's like a beautiful thing to have in a home. I think it looks awesome, but what does that look like in 200 years?
Yeah.
The levels of storytelling going on, I think is really what brings something into Transcend as an art form through perpetually, it'll always be pertinent
in that
sense.
I know also that one of your like, core values for, if you like, a piece of yours is the person who buys it and brings it into their home, are they gonna be excited about the story?
They get to tell about the piece? And every piece you make, there's the layer, not just of what's the story in the painting? Because it's what track is it at? Who are the riders? What were they doing? Yeah. Oh, let me tell you all about the entire flat track story and history and what it means.
But then there's also the experience of getting to come and meet you and come to the show and see not the whole experience from your side as well.
Sure.
And now they have a story about meeting you and who else they met at the event, and then this pa and
yeah. The
layers just keep getting added on.
And so for your work, when someone gets it, whether it's a print or an original, there's already 50 million layers deep that they could do point on their own at point.
Yeah.
And now there's the story of you as the artist and the experience and so many other things where. It becomes a treasured moment.
That's how I collect art.
Like every piece I have, if you ask me what's the story of this?
I could, we could talk about it for an hour. Sure.
Oh, I mean there's so much to chew on there. There's so much to talk about right there. But I think, yeah, and I think one thing that, one thing that's wonderful about art is that the context is so subjective.
And I've listened to people talk about why they love a painting, a famous painting. And I go, what the fuck are you talking about? I'm like, I love that painting. 'cause this is, and you start to realize that they, there's not enough information.
And that is beautiful. When you watch a movie or when you read a comic book or when you read a book, there's no visual, but you know everything.
Yeah. And you can invent that person to the, in the degree of how that story's told. But with a simple painting, a simple portrait of a person, you're taking your entire life experience and you're putting it into that painting. And I think something for me that I've had to challenge a lot with us working together is I have to create these descriptions for my paintings, and I feel like I'm robbing people.
I feel like I'm stealing away their interpretation. Yeah. Yeah. Like I don't want to taint what their experience is with what, with why I painted it and.
That's where you and I have had some relationship conversations. Totally. And
I think like your, you, your points are a hundred percent pertinent because as a sensitive person, as someone who's so creatively ripped, I've been going to the gym.
I'm a creative person. I can walk into a room and see a painting and go I know that person's life story, dude. Yeah, I know that. I know the therapist. That person needs to go to. Like I know everything. And then I'll read the little box and be like, I don't like the little box as much. I like my story more.
So I have to, you've made me aware that not everyone can do that.
Not everyone can do it, but people also want, they wanna hear from your perspective, they need some per
handholding.
'Cause sometimes it's handholding, but I think it's also if I read a great book or watch a great movie, or.
Yeah. If I get excited about something,
right?
I do. What a lot of people do is go on Google and oh, who was that actor? What was that take? And you fall down this rabbit hole of wanting to know as much as you can to add context to what you just saw. Or read or whatever. And so I think every product needs a description and these pieces become products and we're only writing a couple of sentences.
Yeah. But it's tell me in two sentences
Cliff notes
what's going on. Yeah. And or at a minimum, like when you do your amazing landscapes, I'm like, where is it? Just tell, don't need to geotag it. Yeah. But what country is it in? What season was it?
Like I, I immediately wanna know something.
Sure. 'cause I'm excited and it doesn't mean that. The people who want these cliff notes aren't getting an emotional reaction because they are
Right.
But they're like, okay, I love this. Tell me more. Okay, great. Now I'm gonna go and probably email you 'cause I have more questions about this piece. But we need to have something plus we need SEO at a real practical level.
No, it was. I'm on. I'm on the team. I understand its importance now, but I really realized that I'll use this term, I've had my head in a bucket where like all the groups I'm in were all super sensitive artists. We're all artists. We're all so in touch with creativity. And we all walked through museum and could talk for hours about a painting and never even look who did the painting.
Yeah.
And be absolutely in love with it. And then later on I'd be like, dude, who did that painting? That was so good. Or like trying to track it down. So I realized that I just thought that was how everyone was. And then someone comes in from outta that world and is I don't know what's going on.
I think I don't get even any of that away from it. And I think my approach to making descriptions now is okay, I want to try to give you a jump off point. Yeah. I wanna try to lead you up to the door and then you take it, try to take it like as a personal challenge. Try to, who is that person?
Who do you think that person is? Why do you think they're there? Because I don't think we're, we don't have those opportunities anymore. Everything is, we're told how exact everything is on social media, on movies, it might be convoluted, it might take us a couple episodes and cliffhanger to figure it out.
But you're gonna find out and there's no mystery left. And I think that sense of mystery and that sense of choose your own adventure almost, of just try to with your own mind. Tell yourself a story. Imagine a story. You're not, you can't be wrong. Like you can't be wrong.
That's my, I've told you it's my favorite thing to do in a museum. Like my sister and I were doing it all through Italy, like Yeah. What's happening in that painting? And we were being assholes and figuring out the most ridiculous stories we could. Yeah. Yeah. None of them were, would've passed an art history class.
But there, I think there is, but I thought the exercise when we first started putting the descriptions together Yeah. Where you were so against it. I was like, fine, I'll just start. Yeah. And I wrote some, and your reaction to my descriptions was so interesting. 'cause some of them were pretty close and some were so far, dude.
And it's still, yeah. It's still a really exciting. Part. And I think for me it really shows the elasticity and potential of outcomes for paintings. 'cause even sometimes I would write a quick description and you would take that description in a totally different direction. I'd be like, oh, I didn't see the potential to take that description in that direction.
And I would bump it back to be like here's what where it's really going for me. But yeah, the, that freedom of art is is what I think probably makes it so sacred and cherished. Is that like we can all look at something insane like the Sistine Chapel and not understand you don't know anything that's going on, but holy crap, are you feeling something?
Yeah.
Like you're feeling something with just the imagery. It's spectacular and it's beautiful. But you look at that image imagery and you look at those two hands almost touching and you're like, oh fuck. Something is happening there outside of a religious context even. You're like, that is a powerful, is that a religious
experience?
Yeah.
Maybe not an organiz organized one. Everybody's
terms. Yeah. Yeah. And how, whoever's terms you wanna make that, is it a Catholic experience? No. But is it a religious experience? Fuck, it's a
spiritual experience. It's a spiritual,
that's the best way to put it.
But yeah, like you can look at how to create images that are so powerful.
And I think oftentimes our own interpretations of a really powerful image. Is what makes it powerful to us. And you have potential to be like, oh, that's what that means.
Crap.
You could take it,
you could totally, you could trash most important thing in that life. You can
torpedo it, and it rarely has that, I don't think that's ever happened to me, but, or I don't think I've ever done that to someone with one of my works. But that potential out there for me is really, it's really something I wanna be so careful of that. I've seen it happen with my mentor where they're like, this painting he did as somebody, and he like, oh, it looks just like my grandpa.
And he was this guy, and I can just tell he was the same kind of person and blah, blah, blah. And they buy this portrait. And then later on he was like, yeah, no, that was just a model though. He was a terrible guy. He was always late. He would hit on the students and you're like, oh my God. And that person's it's grandpa.
It's grandpa dude. So it's yeah I really think you're like. You should be delicate with it and you should let people have, I think for me, essentially, I want to let people have that freedom.
Yeah. And I've never asked you to write a short story about a piece. No, for sure. We just need two to three sentences so people know.
And especially two, when you think about, 'cause a lot of the stuff we've been working on is switching from you as an artist Yeah. And being surrounded by artists. Yeah. To building your website in particular, but how we're talking about your art for the buyer,
dude. Totally.
And buyers and collectors of art can be on the opposite perspective than people who are making it.
And when just the word collector. If they want only pictures, only work from Italy. Of Italy. Or they only want a loaf of bread like. If they are looking for those things and the words are there, then it's like the, it's the entry point. The same thing you were talking about where okay, mark approved you, you're in.
And they're like, oh, this is Italy. I want it. I
want it. Yeah. And
they don't need to know anything else. But if we didn't say where it was, like we're missing that opportunity to get somebody excited about something.
Yeah.
My mother gets so excited anytime she's ever been anywhere that somebody brings up and she's oh yeah, I'm there.
I'm like it. Yeah. It's, it causes that,
yeah.
Trigger. So I do think it's an interesting balance, whether you're making sneakers or you're making fine art of what the people who know. Yeah.
Yeah.
Versus what we put out so that there's some translated version. For people who haven't been as close to it as
Sure you are.
Sure.
You and I are really good at talking endlessly, like since we've met, it's just been an ongoing conversation.
I know that we could have a five part podcast
Totally. You,
so we'll definitely have you back. But I wanna do some rapid fire questions Okay. To close out your first episode.
Okay. When you look back at 8-year-old, you, how psyched is 8-year-old you about where your life is today?
Psyched for sure. I, yeah, I'm trying to think of what I would've been aware of as an 8-year-old me right now. I think all I can think of right now as an 8-year-old, I was probably hiding behind someone's leg.
So the idea of being on this podcast, the kid's probably who is that? Who is this guy? Because there are moments that I have now where I'm like, who is this dude? And I think. How my Instagram is changing and how I'm like starting to show up more and show my face and talk on my Instagram was something that I was really intimidated and afraid to do.
But I think working with you, working with other people, really gave me the confidence that it's don't deny people that this part of you that's interesting and funny and an important part. And then when I see so many other artists who are like, oh my God, they're wacky and crazy and they're, they have such a great career, and it's those are all things that I'm doing in my living room with my cat when I'm painting.
I dance like an idiot, and so I think to get back on topic, I think it would be unbelievable for my 8-year-old self to see who I am. Now,
we ask everybody on the podcast where you put yourself on the powerful 80 scale. If zero is average everyday human, and 10 is the most powerful human you can imagine,
whoa,
where would you put yourself today and on an average day
today?
This is a pretty good day. That being said, I'm gonna go like high seven, 7.8 or something.
Okay.
Only because I think, and what I've learned a lot from working with you is and having this approach where it's like my, I'm weak. I'm that skinny scrawny kid who can't push the bar when it comes to marketing and business and selling myself and business funnels.
And so I'm just now going to the gym and I'm like at that place where like I'm seeing results and I'm putting more weight on the bar and like I'm other people at the gym are like, yeah, buddy, you're getting stronger. That's really the phase I'm at. And it's really exciting and fun and new and like all challenges just feel like opportunities.
But then occasionally you'll bring something up where you're like, you need to do this. And I'm like, Nope. It's still that's 600 pounds. I can't squat that. Like I still see myself being like, that's not in my reach yet. So I like that because I'm like, okay, there's still a really long, there's eventually a place where I'll get to there, but for now I wanna leave a lot of room.
Yeah. Because I think I have a long way to go. Yeah. Seven.
You got a lot of fun things to get after. Yeah.
Yeah. It's all fun stuff. But yeah. Seven, seven and a half.
We've been asking everyone what is on their wishlist? What do they want? What are they manifesting? What can they ask This powerful group that we can maybe have the answer for or help make happen for you, dude,
come to my show.
Yeah.
How do they do that?
It's a lot of pressure. I feel like I should be more prepared for this, but
maybe I'll ask you instead. No. For people who want to buy art from you, get a commission, come to the show, support you. Yeah. Where can they do all of those things? Okay.
So my website, Andrew Patterson Fine art.com is the central place to find all that stuff.
So you'll find info on commissions, you'll find works that are available. For sure. Sign up for my email list because. That's probably, I'm probably more excited about that than my website. That's become a really fun part of self-expression for me. So it's funny, it's informal, it's wacky, and then you get early access to art.
I'm selling, you'll get monthly deals on some pieces that I'm pulling outta the archives to sell. And you'll be up to date on everything that is going on with me. So if anything, if you, if I wanted you to do any one singular thing after listening to this, if for sure it would be to join the email list and you can find it, it'll pop up on my website when you go to it.
But after that October 13th, downtown LA Bike shed, Modo, there's a whole page for it on my website now too. You can go there, read more about it, and find the Eventbrite to RSVP for it. And then even if you're not local, sign up for the email list and you'll get early access to prints and originals when it goes up online.
So this show's really. Significant for me. And I feel like in a way, the whole world's artistically watching because a lot of my artistic friends and mentors, we've all been recently exhausted by galleries and the gallery system. And so I've been chewing on this idea and trying to find out how do we break away, how do we break this mold?
And none of us are happy just being stuck trying to sell stuff on Instagram. But we don't want to be locked into some gallery for years that we can't get out of, that we have to give them half of whatever we make and they might not sell our work and everything. So to me, this is a huge opportunity to show what can be done with artists when they choose not to succumb or give in my opinion, to what's happening in the art world as far as art, sales.
And it would just be awesome for people to come support it and be a part of it. But the original point of that was I'm gonna have art for sale that's in the gallery available on my website. So it doesn't matter if you're in Antarctica or if you're in London, or if you're in Sacramento and you don't want to drive down, I'll have art in the show that will be available on my website three or four days before the show and it'll run through the weekend.
So there is potential for us to have our, over our opening night or the pop-up night and have all my work sold. Yeah. Which would be an absolute dream. So yeah, I think this is something that I hope can change what. How we're selling art. I think we're really finding a way to take advantage of everything that's happening with the gates coming down, and people not needing galleries, and galleries, not really meeting anyone's expectations. So I think this is I want this to work not just for me, but for all artists, yeah. I want this to be how we sell art now. Yeah.
And you're gonna have about 10 originals maybe a few more.
Yes.
Paintings and drawings.
Paintings and drawings. A couple drawings, yeah. But yeah, mostly paintings.
And then we're gonna be making prints and at least one size, if not two, two
sizes. Yeah. For some
of the, heavy hitters. Yeah.
Heavy hitters. Significant works. So we'll have all the prints available.
There'll be a open-ended run that will essentially, you'll be making pre-orders, so we'll have a five or 10 day period of pre-orders. And then after that, it'll be done.
Till the next one.
Yeah. Thank you so much for being us, to sharing your story and your show and what's coming up with myself and everyone who is listening.
And thank you for trusting me in this process because it's been one of the, like most rewarding experiences I've had. And to see the progress that you've made and how you are equally running towards it and resisting moments at the same time. It's like very entertaining to be like next to you in this process.
Oh man, I appreciate that. Thanks for being there and helping me through all of it. Yeah. You've been incredible. Thank you. I think I forgot what I was gonna say. Yeah. I think for me it's important to come and talk about. My life and my process, because I know it's familiar to so many creatives, and I know that there's so many people out there that might be sitting on a pile of drawings and being like, fuck.
Yeah.
Yeah. So go out there and do something. Do something with 'em. People wanna see it. Yeah. People wanna see art. They wanna see your art.
They wanna see your art, and they wanna know about it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. There's a core philosophy of my entire business, is that we need the crazy, ridiculous unicorns that you are, because there's so much talent and possibility in that, and in people doing what they know they're supposed to do.
Yeah.
And you can't be a contribution to others until you share it.
Dude, for real. For real. And you, and ultimately, like I heard this quote and it's all I can think about with decision making, but it was if you can't afford the price of winning, wait till you get the bill for regret, dude.
Yeah.
Mostly I use it when I have to spend money but in other contexts, I think it's been a really empowering, empowering phrase to keep in mind because I re I really do think and it took me 40 years or more now to get to this place of being like, who's gonna do this? Are you gonna do it or not?
The cavalry's not coming. The
cavalry's not coming. Yeah. Yeah. No one's gonna make time for you. No one is out here making time for you. Your boss is not your girlfriend's, not your boyfriend's not, no one's making time for you. There's something that you wanna do with your life. No one's gonna show up at your dorm and say here's.
A year of your life to do whatever you want. No one's gonna do that. And it took me a long freaking time. Everybody's gonna ask for more. Yeah. Everybody's gonna ask for more time. Everybody's gonna ask for more work. Everybody's gonna say, oh, we gotta get this done. And none of that's your fault. And no one's gonna make time for you until you say, I'm making time for me.
I'm making time for this. It's too important now.
It's too important. You're too important and too talented. So thank you for choosing yourself.
Oh, thank
you.
Yeah. I honestly, I couldn't have done it without you like getting the push being account, having an accounta buddy, but really like feeling. With everything you're helping me with now.
I was lost and didn't know how to do I was screaming at the moon going I want people to buy my every time I post on Instagram, nobody buys anything. And it's like, why? Why would they? Yeah. Like once, knowing what I know now, that's what an idiot, just how can I crack the algorithm?
How can I figure this out? Every, I just need people, so many people are selling art on Instagram. How come I'm not? And no, it's, that's not it. That's not it. It's not the
algorithm, it's the people. It's the
people and it's the eyes and it's finding out really cool and fun ways to get people to get their eyes on what you're making yeah. I, it's an honor to be here and to talk to your group. Yeah. And be a powerful lady.
You sure are
all the links to connect with Andrew, attend his show, and check out his work are available in her show notes@thepowerfulladies.com. Subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening and leave us a rating and review. Join us on Instagram at Powerful Ladies, and if you're looking to connect directly with me, visit kara duffy.com or Kara under Duffy on Instagram.
I'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Until then, I hope we're taking on being powerful in your life. Go be awesome and up to something you love.
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Twitter @Tatertweetsart
Youtube: Andrew Petterson
Facebook: Tatermade
Website: andrewpettersonfineart.com
TikTok @Tatermanart
Email: andrewipetterson@gmail.com
Created and hosted by Kara Duffy
Audio Engineering & Editing by Jordan Duffy
Production by Amanda Kass
Graphic design by Anna Olinova
Music by Joakim Karud
