Episode 247: She Built a Career on Generosity | Sunny Bates | Founder, Author, Master Connector & Recruiter
What if your most valuable business asset was your generosity? In this episode of the Powerful Ladies Podcast, Kara Duffy talks with Sunny Bates, a founder, author, and master connector. Sunny’s built a world-class career by investing in relationships first. Sunny shares how generosity is the true fuel behind powerful networks, why she sees herself as a talent ecosystem builder, and how she evaluates people beyond what they say they want. They explore the hidden layers of hiring, mentorship, career transitions, and how to operate at the intersection of ideas, people, and purpose. From founding Kickstarter to her recent heart surgery in France, Sunny’s life is a masterclass in living globally, leading with curiosity, and trusting your gut. If you’re interested in career reinvention, relationship-driven success, or how to thrive in a world in transition, this episode delivers insights you won’t hear anywhere else.
“Networks have been my basis and my bedrock in life and work. Generosity & acknowledgement feed networks. Then networks become communities.”
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Chapters:
[00:00:00] Welcome Sunny Bates to Powerful Ladies
[00:01:00] What Threads Shape the Future?
[00:03:00] The Power of Generosity in Leadership
[00:06:00] Detaching from Outcomes and Embracing Non-Attachment
[00:08:00] Discovering Her Talent for Connecting People
[00:10:00] How to Build and Sustain Powerful Networks
[00:14:00] Blending Personal and Professional Relationships
[00:17:00] Recruiting with Integrity and Cultural Fit
[00:21:00] Choosing What to Say Yes To as a Leader
[00:25:00] Why Infrastructure and AI Are the Future
[00:33:00] Redefining Power and the Role of Women
[00:44:00] Transitions, Mentors, and Life’s Next Chapter
Follow along using the Transcript
My sense of success was very confined, and I think that I started dreaming about more. Nothing prepared me for the kind of richness and joy and delight. And worldliness that my life is now.
That's Sunny Bates. I'm Kara Duffy, and this is The Powerful Ladies podcast.
Welcome to the Powerful Ladies Podcast.
Thank you, Kara. I'm delighted to be here.
Let's jump in by telling everyone who you are, where you are in the world, and what you're up to.
Ah, well, my name is Sunny Bates. I'm in New York City in Manhattan, overlooking a gray, trying to have some blue clouds, um, p blue sky peeking through.
Um, I am, I guess up to all kinds of things. I think mostly up to the thing that's been most interesting to me always is the people and the threads that are shaping the future. So in that way, it looks, it looks very different and then also looks very familiar. So it looks very familiar in that we do executive search and recruiting.
It looks very different in that we are constantly, um, looking to see what, what are the, the threads of the future. Who are the people that are, that are, um, forging those paths? How do they come together and expand and amplify themselves, and what can our role be in that?
And how did you, so when I look at your website and how I found you, there are so many people who have nothing but not even five star, but like 10, 12 star reviews.
Yeah, yeah. About the impact that you've made on them, their community, their businesses. Mm-hmm. How did you start being this force that is changing so many people and companies around the world?
Well, thank you. That's so nice to hear. It also sounds, it sounds so grandiose, like, oh my god, people in forces, other worlds fabulous.
Um, I think that, you know, it basically, it boils down to one word, which is generosity. It's about being generous. It's about when you have the opportunity to give, to help, to support. To do that, do that. And I guess that's always been how I have been, which is, I mean, with very few exceptions. It's interesting.
Whenever I think about the ways in which, um, I have been generous, I think of those few moments in my life where I wasn't, I was competitive. I was, where I just didn't sort of open up and be generous. And, um, and it has paid off so beautifully. I think, I think in a, in an era where. Or in a moment in time, I suppose it's been this way for a long time where relationships and knowledge have become so transactional mm-hmm.
That people will spend a lot of time telling you, don't give it away. You should never give it away. You don't, don't, don't give it away. You, you should charge for, you should find it away. You do so much for people, you don't make any money. Um, and I did fight against that for a long time, and now I just see part of the thing as being where I am in my life, that it's really harvest time.
It's just like all these things come back to you in such a beautiful way. And I think that because networks have been my basis, my bedrock for so long, even before I knew that's what they were. Mm-hmm. Um, that, that, you know, the underlying. Spaces of networks is generosity. That's what feeds them. It's not transactions, it's not, it's not paying to play.
It is literally generosity, feeds it, generosity, acknowledgement. That's, that's what people are looking for. Yeah. Um, and that's how it works. And so coming at it that way, and it was also that it never felt right. I mean, I did kind of fall into. A particular kind of work that allowed you to monetize your network to a certain extent.
Mm-hmm. Or your sense of people. But the reality is that, um. You know, you can only really make money on your networks if you are, um, charging a fee and can take a piece of fee. So if money's exchanging hands, you can. Mm-hmm. So in that case, an agent a, um, if you're raising money and there's a certain formula from one company to the next, if you are in my ca case, recruiting for talent, then you can absolutely take a piece of the money that's exchanging hands.
Otherwise, it's very hard. It becomes a tax on the system. It slows everything down. Um, you're constantly trying to argue for why. For why it's worth it that they pay you without knowing about results. So I think it's a, it, you know, it becomes a sort of an ongoing practice of non-attachment. Yeah. Which is, you're very excited when things work out and you're like, but look, I brought this person to you, and you know, whether they're.
Somebody that you, um, that, that has become a key member of your team or your CEO or a board member or someone you've fallen in love with. I mean, there's all kinds of ways that these, all kinds of forms, these relationships take shape. And I think that it's, um, it's very easy to say, you know, I want credit for this.
Um, I mean, I'm always delighted when people do, you know, thank me in that, that's a lovely thing. That's part of the acknowledgement. But I think you can't be. You can't be so attached to the outcome. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, all you can do is ring the people and what your best knowledge and wisdom is about how they will be able to connect and work together.
Um, and if it works, then it splendid. But you can also say you look out the window and said everyone else made it happen. Or you look in the mirror and say it was all. Um, and I've never been much of looking in the mirror, much better about looking out the window. Right. So, so, um, but I think in the same case, when something doesn't work you, you feel terrible.
Mm-hmm. And then you realize, you know, it just is, it wasn't my decision Yeah. To do these kinds of things. So I think that, that, you know, kind where. What's me, what's not me? What you can actually take, take, um, responsibility for is important. 'cause I think many of us in, in this ever fast moving world, we are in the midst of right now with so many complications and with such complexity.
Um. It's, it, it, it's, uh, it's very hard not to be responsible for things that we have nothing to be able to do with. I guess that's really called worry, isn't it? Mm-hmm. So, so, so, um, I guess that's a long-winded answer to your question, but sort of whatcha thinking about right now and then thought reflects back on what I am always thinking about.
If we go back to 8-year-old, you would, she have imagined that this is your life and your business and how you're spending your time.
No, we wouldn't have any idea. I grew up in a little suburb outside of Chicago. I was the youngest of four girls. All I wanted to do was be as good as, or better than my sisters.
I was an athlete, which I had sort of continued along in my life. Um, but I, my sense of success was very confined. Um, and I think that I started dreaming about more, um. I don't think I, any, nothing prepared me for the kind of richness and joy and delight and worldliness that my life is now. It's really, when I think about it, it's like I'm so unbelievably privileged and so wildly lucky, um, to have the life that I have, the family that I have to have, the love that I have, the friends that I have, the interesting work that I have.
It's, it's pretty great, pretty great.
At what point in your business did you decide to add the layer of. Like sparking these big ideas, connecting people who wanna make a difference and change the world in radical ways. Like when did that get added into the recruiting that you were doing?
I think it's, I think that started first before the recruiting actually.
Um, 'cause I was in publishing, I was in magazine publishing for 11 years before I, um, started my business. And um, and at that point I was, I was still putting people together. I was meeting someone saying, you should meet someone, you should do this. It was just, it was natural. I did that. I did that when I was in high school.
I did that when I lived overseas for a year. I did that. Um, all through college I was always putting together and, you know, when you were from sitting on your gifts, that that's your gift, which is people and the, and the, you know, seeing these, these lovely possible possibilities and combinations. Um, you don't think of it as being something that you do, it's just part of.
Like you're swimming. Yeah. Wherever you were. So I think that that's what led me into this idea of connecting into recruiting. Um, and part of it was I had during, during a period when I was working in publishing. I, there was a period where about six months I managed to sort of connect five, five or six people in, into jobs.
And I was like, oh, I'm actually really good at this. If I ever lead publishing, I should try to do this. And then that happened very shortly thereafter, which is end up publishing and yeah, and started the business and, and, and not really understanding quite how it worked, but understanding that I knew I could find talent and I could understand what people needed and how those dynamics would, um, come together.
And then I was sort of sure that I could. Make a go of it. And I did and have been doing a variation of it ever since. So it's been a long time.
Yeah. No. Um, being someone who is also always connecting people. Yes. I, I think it's really interesting to break it, break down what happens naturally, if we can at all.
'cause there's so many people who Yeah. Don't think that way. I know. And they're curious about like, what do you see in people? Like what are your thoughts? Mm-hmm. Like for myself, like I'll see someone and like, it's not even a thought I have, it's just like, no, like I just know you need to meet this person and here's why.
Right, right. And I've been helping some, uh, clients hire lately and they're like, how can you evaluate someone's LinkedIn profile that quickly to say if they would fit or not? And I was like, that's a really good question. So I'm really curious, like, what is it that you think you really see in people? Like what's the layer that you're operating on that maybe most people aren't?
Well, I think
I, I, I mean, I think I have to take a step back before we talk about that, which is I think that, that most people, when they think about their life and their career and their work, they don't think about in terms of an infrastructure. They may think about one job to this or that, or they may think about their education, how they try to translate that.
But I think that that. To my mind, and I figured out pretty quickly that this network was gonna be something that I could build the back of my entire life on. And if you think about it in that way, and just say, every person that you meet is potential to be part of your world and or they are one person away from someone who should be part of your world.
And so almost always, when I have a conversation. Someone I find out, you know, who else should I know? Who's in your world that you admire, who's just to begin to, and sometimes I say, would you introduce us? And some so that there's a, there's continually building this network of people to be able to be activated and press and deserve when you need it.
And I think that what the part of the problem is that most people approach networks and networking and community building as, and they're, those are three separate things. Actually. Networking networks are similar, but community building is sort of one step further in terms of intensity of connection.
But um, they approach it like, I need this, so I need to go out and meet a person who'll help me get this as opposed to. Who are the people in the world that I wanna know? Mm-hmm. Who are the companies or who are doing this kind and literally plan it out in that way. And you can be very specific about relationships that you wanna, that you want to, um, cultivate.
And it really is about cultivating. 'cause when you've cultivated relationships and you have these relationships, you can press 'em with a service when you've got it. And people know to trust you that you're not gonna waste their time. You're not just coming to them saying, I want, um mm-hmm. You know, I need this now.
Help me. As opposed to saying, I've got a relationship with you, we've had a conversation before. I know what you're working on at that point in time. And usually I take notes. I tend to have a very good memory around sort of the dynamics around a person. So that is helpful. Like, you know, finding out about their family, finding out about their relationships, finding out about, you know, not just, I've gotta find a job, which is also, you know, a world privilege of people.
That they are in a situation with time where they can begin to pick and choose in that way. Mm-hmm. So it, but I think that what you don't want is to only be reaching out to someone when you need them. Because then it just feels like, oh, you only reach out to me when you need me. As opposed to, we are all human.
Yeah. We all wanna feel like we matter. We all wanna feel like we are connecting in some way. And there's some people that you connect with and don't really have much in common. You don't wanna take it any further, and that's okay. Mm-hmm. But I think that the idea of thinking about all this as being sort of a living, breathing entity in your life, um, I, I, I remember.
Again, to your point about sort of how do you, what's this layer? I remember at one point doing an exercise, gosh, it's probably like 15, maybe even 20 years ago. I think it was 20, it might have been 20 years ago, um, about doing a business development. And I put together, and I was doing it with a woman who was very artful in her thinking about she's actually doing a lot of coaching and future work, woman named Sophie Wade.
Um, um, and we put together a whole list of people that, um, I knew would be, you know, I was close to and reliable sources and um, and there were about. 85 and, and then I realized that three of my very closest friends that I would call if anything was wrong, that they weren't on that list. And then I was doing that thing of dividing your personal and your professional.
Mm-hmm. And when I looked at the kind of business and how to develop and how I wanted to develop it came from people who knew me and liked me and wanted to work with me, had done that before, or wanted to do it in the future, or knew me and liked me and said, when I get a chance, I wanna work with you.
But it wasn't necessarily but the, the business personal. Relationships were, um, were the, the, there was no real boundary in that. There weren't really boundaries on that. Um, and that the personal became professional, professional became personal. And particularly in this kind of recruiting or helping people to hire, is that, um, it's a very intimate conversation you have with people.
Mm-hmm. I mean, at least the way that, that, that we do it, which is it's a very, you're really getting to know them because what you can't do, even though you're. Hired by the client. You can't just be always pushing your agenda and if it's not right for someone, you can't say, look, you should really make your life miserable and you know, and make my company happy.
'cause if your life's miserable, you're not gonna be happy. Like nobody's happy in that situation. So I think, I think that's one of the, the pieces is of looking at the whole way that you approach networks and people and who you want and doing it deliberately over time. Um, and then just feeding it over time too.
Um, and you can, you know, relationships will have their metabolism and sort of understanding what those are when people wanna be reached out to when they don't. So I feel like that that's the kind of bedrock of it. And in terms of what's the additional layer to learn? Um, I think it's about persistence. I think it's about, first of all, caring.
And if you don't care, then it's gonna be pretty hard to do it well. If you don't care. I mean, I'm talking about this sort of intimate connection with people. I'm not talking about like, you can be, you know, you can, you can do top of the funnel and you can do recruiting and do that very well. And in terms of like, how do you know?
Um, I think that you look at enough profiles and you figure it out. You figure out when someone looks like their resume, they're, they're, they're packing their resume. You look at people look like they're doing 20 things. So like, oh, come on, this can't really be true. Um, you look at sometimes this is what other people say about them, but, you know, 'cause testimonials I think are very po are very mm-hmm.
They're a, um, a positive way of. Illustrating illustrating the, the who you are and how people think about you. Um, but I think they're also ones that are heartfelt as opposed to just like someone ticking the box at LinkedIn lets you do. Yeah. Um, so I, so I feel like when you do it over time, you've got both the, the skills, but I think the real.
Magic happens. That's not really, magic isn't the cultural fit. Mm-hmm. Are your values aligned? Are you in that place where you really are the ways in which you work aligned? Because if they're not, it's very hard. I guess it was Peter Drucker who said, you know, culture eat strategy for breakfast every day.
Um, but I think it's really true and we're seeing that now. We're seeing people talking about using language around culture. Like, this is not a culture I wanna be part of. It's a bro culture, it's a toxic culture, it's a whatever that, and people. Now there's a name and there's words for what that means.
And there wasn't necessarily 20, 30 years ago. Yeah, people didn't talk about it quite in the same way. It's really, it's really come to the forefront. So I think that the communication, I think sort of clarity in communication and honesty, I think most people don't wanna tell people. When they're being rejected, they don't wanna be the bearer of bad news.
And so they often dance around it. I used to do that, somewhat dance around it, and then you find yourself, oh, then you've gotta, you've gotta do it at some point. And, and yeah, there's something very liberating about always telling the truth. This is what I heard, this is what they feel. It's nothing about, it's just not a fit.
It doesn't have to do with you. I mean, in one sense it feels deeply personal 'cause it's you. Yeah. And in another sense. It's just the fit isn't there and, and why you can go through why it isn't. But I think that part of maturity is understanding mm-hmm. Where you fit and where you don't fit, and what kinds of things you need to be happy and really thrive.
And that thriving is really, um, that I think the key part for, for really excellent performance over a long period of time. Mm-hmm. You can grind it out for a while, but boy, you know, you can't keep that for too long. You burn out.
Yeah. I think giving that feedback is so critical because most people who aren't getting roles that they wanted really wanna know.
Yeah. 'cause there's, we don't get a lot of feedback from the people in our lives and we, and unfortunately there's all often not a lot of feedback in the workplace about Yeah. How you really show up and how you really come across first impressions long term. So I think that feedback cycle is so critical.
The other one that I'm curious if you spend a lot of time doing is. Getting the hiring manager or the CEO or the other people on the leadership team to be really honest about themselves. Because I think often people say who they, how they think they work, and you're like, that is not what you do at all.
That's the fantasy of how you think you, you operate.
Um, I think that that's a great thing to be able to get them to be honest and actually articulate. But I think self knowledge is a beautiful thing and we don't always have it. And I also think when you're working with. Entrepreneurs, um, or people who are working in early stage companies trying to take, trying to make something out of whole cloth that doesn't exist, that a big part of their, they're, they're, they're imagining this fantasy and they're trying to create it.
And so they aren't honest with, is it possible not otherwise they never do it. So I think there's, there's room for that kind of, um, uh, that, that kind of, um, dreamer. And then the, we know the, the power and the persistence it takes to execute. And I think when you have people like that, you need to be able to surround them with people, like other people like that.
Because I think that that, um, that's why I always said it would be hard for me to be a matchmaker. 'cause I, I, I know that if you hire me, I can find you a great member of your team, period. I just know I can do it. But I don't know that I can find you the person you wanna spend your life with. 'cause most of the time people aren't honest with themselves about what they really want.
Yes. People won't say things like that. People won't say things like, I hate red paint and fingernails. Yeah. They won't articulate that. They won't articulate that. You know, I need somebody who's a night person versus someone. So, so I think as part of it is intuiting what people, who they are, what they want versus just what they say they want.
But like, what's gonna make them happy. And, you know, actually the metaphor that, that I use a lot with. With the work that I do is kind of like a real estate broker. Like, you know, when you get a really good real estate broker. Yeah. Um, and this happens a lot in New York because, you know, people are like, I wanna really, I'm wanna brownstone in a quiet street.
And, and then you're like, everyone they look at seems small and cramped and this, and then you take them to a modern that's big and open and white. They're like, I love it. You're like. So if you'd listen to them, you'd still be showing them small cramped spaces with brick walls. Yeah. And because you know, if you, if you listen to the feedback that they give on different situations and when you're sort of doing composite characters of people, if you're um, or you're showing them real people and profiles, they can say, don't like that.
And you're like, okay, why don't you like, and you begin to see patterns in that way because we're pattern seekers, right? Yeah. But I think in that way it is helping people to. To understand not just what they think they want, but that what they really need and what's gonna make them thrive.
Mm-hmm. You are also a serial entrepreneur and I guess, right, and you like founding board member on Kickstarter, for example.
Mm-hmm. So how are you choosing. What businesses, brands, companies, you are going to give a piece of yourself to in that bigger way. Mm-hmm. Like what excites you to get you to be a yes when you are already plenty busy enough, I imagine. Right, right. Well,
um, the reality is I love saying yes. The reality is I like saying yes way more than I like saying no.
Um, I think that, that it gets down to people for me. So if someone approaches me and says, gonna help advise, and I say, you know, what do you need? How much do, um, and if, and for the most part, I'll say yes. Mm-hmm. Because you know what, like only like, like only 10% of people actually really come back around and actually do something.
Most of the time. They're like, oh, they, you use my name for something. I mean, I will only do it if I like what they're doing. It's not like I'm not gonna be every. Um, e every person who comes along, but if, if it seems like an interesting idea, if they seem like a talented person might be able to happen and there's some way I can contribute, I'll say yes, knowing that the reality is most people won't come back.
Now boards is different because you have fiduciary responsibility and because, and I think in that case, I mean that founders have, Kickstarter kept coming back over and over and over and over and over to me and they used to sit and I'm sitting at my dining room table and they used to come here and have meetings and um, and they just were so.
I was like, okay, this is, something's really gonna happen here. Most of the time it doesn't. Most of the time it doesn't. Yeah. So, um, so I think that, that I love, I love things that didn't exist before. I love things that are hard but important. I love things that are piece in particular ecosystems that you could nail that would help other things to amplify.
Um, I love. I love a big sweeping idea that's gonna take a long time. So I think that that, um, most things have their seasons. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm really, really good at helping someone in the beginning help them bring the pieces together, help them imagine what they can do, help them with the kind of talent they need, both that they hire, and then also comes as sort of an advisory around them.
Mm-hmm. That I always feel like so often really needs a whole group of people around. You can be like a kitchen cabinet. You've got them all helping you to put. To, to get to where you need to go. Mm-hmm. So I'm very good at that. And also good about, do you know, you can't hire this person. They're not gonna, they're never gonna come work for you.
So, excuse me. Um, how can you engage them? And maybe you can't, but mm-hmm. Looking at different ways to engage people. So, so I think that, that, um, I actually just recently re resigned from board I've been on for 20 years. I was like, okay, 20 years is enough, right? Yes. It's like, I love the organization, I love the work they do.
I believe in it. They're very solid. They have a great new, um, uh, CEO. They've got funders. Their, their work is beautiful. They don't need me anymore. You know, so I do like to feel like I can be in a place that really needs what I can bring. Mm-hmm. Um. So that's a must have versus a nice to have.
What are some of the big conversations in the world right now that you're excited about in general and or excited to be a part of?
I think it's hard not to be excited about and also, uh, slightly terrified about the political. Geopolitics of the world right now. Um, and I kind of came to a place where I decided I only wanted to be able to give, to donate both time and money to organizations that were working on things that were gonna be, um, helping with the changing of the infrastructure.
So supporting the infrastructure in terms of how people get elected, what that looks like, how do we bring more candidates into, how do we support them? So rather than individual races backing a. Course, shall we say person, but looking at what kinds of things can be done for the underlying infrastructure.
And I think I'm very interested in that across the board. So looking at that in terms of what's the infrastructure to facilitate piece, not universities anymore. People can't have conversations there. Where can they have those concept conversations and how can that be replicated out? Well, I'm not sure yet, but that's, mm-hmm.
That's super interesting to me. Of course, the, um, a whole biotech world is so interesting to me, to life sciences, and we did a couple of big searches. This year and that it got very interested in seeing the combination of what's possible. Mm-hmm. And then what our infrastructures are like right now, what our systems are like, our legacy systems.
Be able to bring these things out into the marketplace, what that looks like, which is super interesting and challenging. Um, and then of course, ai, you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's everywhere. And we we're doing some work with a couple of companies right now that I'm enjoying. Um, I think it's, it's interesting to get a sense of what.
I, I guess right now I'm sort of thinking about what's the highest and best use, so what I can do both of my time, of my skills and my expertise of my that. And it feels like, um, for a while I was doing a lot in the digital currency world and on the blockchain. And, um, and then I felt like it was going a direction that there wasn't thing that I could necessarily be working on.
But in, you know, in the case of ai, I'm, I'm part of it. Very interesting group that's, uh, based in, uh, in London and Oxford called the, um, which is the human AI flourishing, sort of understanding what it means, understanding what, what it means to flourish. Not just doing no harm, but how can we put these principles into products that we're developing so that they will keep us from.
Being harmed, harming ourselves versus society, looking at societal risk and doing a, um, a risk analysis and risk model for that. So that's been interesting. I had done a lot of, um, I'd done, I've been an advisory board of AI now a number of years ago that was looking at the same thing that was, I say a number of years ago.
It was like three years ago, and now everything is exploding and accelerating. So. Looking at that. I think my longtime affiliation with Ted and TED conferences has been a real source, joy and people and ideas and possibilities. Mm-hmm. Um, and constantly renewing my sense of what's possible and the people who are actually, um, helping to create these things.
So, so, mm-hmm. Um, I think
that's. Those are the, those are the things at the moment. Just a few things. Yep. All really interesting. Right, right, right. Well, also looking outside of the us,
so I, um, my, my partner is, uh, Madrid, Spanish, so he lives there. And so we're spending a lot of time in Europe. I just had an interesting experience, which is that I had a heart surgery about four, five weeks ago now.
Um, and it wasn't able to be done in the US because it was not FDA approved. And so my people in. And one of the best practices in New York said, well, you know, and I mentioned this person in France and they said, oh, she's the best in the world. Go to her. So then I went to a very different looking and feeling place to have a particular procedure done that's been very successful.
Um, and thinking, oh, we're totally global. If you've got the best practice in, in New York City in cardiac electrocardiogram saying, oh yeah, do that. Right You up to someplace totally different. And I know that always. Happened in different areas. There was this, we were seeing it happening. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's interesting having this sense of dominance in so many different areas and then getting out of.
Here and getting out into the world and seeing the different ways in which the ingenuity, the creativity. Mm-hmm. The business, the perspectives are so different and I think that's been a great joy for me to spend more time and see it and, and always look at new territories because it's very easy, as you said, oh, you know, everybody, people are saying such nice things.
It's like, yeah. Like in a tiny little world. It's such a big world and there's so much that needs to be, that needs to be done.
Well, and that's why when I have clients that are freaking out about someone else is doing this or there's a competitor, I'm like, you have no idea how many people are making a huge impact and are making whatever amount of money they want that you have never heard of.
Yeah. Like there's so much room to do what you think is in alignment with you and how you wanna use your gifts and talents. Mm-hmm. And I just, yeah. Being someone who has lived abroad and traveled extensively, it's. I get caught off guard when people aren't thinking in a bigger perspective.
Yeah.
Of, you know, the, the push for.
Being more, more nationalistic or closing things off or, and I'm like, what, what,
what are we? Mm-hmm. To what end? Yes. To what end. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting you talk about the loop. 'cause one of the other things I've been very involved with for the last three years that really started with my partner, because he was an organic chemist, was, um, getting involved in the whole world of psychedelics.
And understanding the possibilities and the promise of them. And, and yeah, he ended up writing, he ended up starting a publishing company and writing, uh, publishing free books on that. And I ended up getting very involved in what the movement looks like here in the US and, and what the power is that in terms of transformation, in terms of getting you out of those loops you're talking about, of those thought loops.
And so, uh, I'm sort of fascinated to think about how those pieces come together in a world where we are looking for change and people are looking to disrupt. The dynamics or the thinking that they, they are stuck in. Mm-hmm. And it's a, it's, um, um, I have to tell you one story I remember I was, uh, I went to Ted India and I was another friend of mine who had been running the Ted Talks Ink Talks, and Ted, and she's like, oh, this guy's a really famous Bollywood actress, like the most famous person in India.
I was like, and we, we've take him around. He was like, of course I'll, I did. And then, you know, we gotta be friends, of course. And he, um. He was coming to New York and first of all, every single person stared at him. I mean, like, literally it was like, you know, we're, we're in miso. There's, I mean, there's, there's.
Hundreds of thousands and everyone was like looking at him, like pointing at and stuff like, so then we met up in New York, but he came to visit and we walked down the street and not a single person turned around. And I was like, A billion people know you in that part of the world, and not a single person in New York City recognizes you, but you're just some handsome Indian guy.
Right? And that's just, that's one of those, I think about that a lot when people are like, oh, you know, a lot of people. Or like, I need to, or I'm a big deal in this, to be like, okay, just like, just like step into another continent and see based. At all or anybody knows what you're doing. So I think that this, it's humbling and it's important to do
well.
It's, it's humbling. It shows how many, how much opportunity there is. Yeah. It's. Uh, in both. Like who, who else you have to meet and yeah. Learn from, but also like who you have to engage with on Yes. You know, on both sides. Mm-hmm. Um, of course you run the Powerful Ladies podcast and so I'm really curious what you think about the words powerful and ladies and mm-hmm.
Does their definition change when they're put next to each other?
That's an inter interesting question. 'cause I, you know, um, uh, I don't use the word ladies much. And actually I was talking to a male friend of mine who was saying that someone had kind of taken him to task when he had said something about, well, ladies first, and he was a, you know, gentleman courtly, and he was like, I didn't mean in any way to be disrespectful.
And they kind of went on a, um, it's great. It's easy to do and, and mm-hmm. Um, so I think that that, um, it, it feels like it's from a different era. Mm-hmm. It feels like it's like Madeline Albright and it feels like it's, you know, with people who are, who, who, who. Pushed very, very hard earlier on. Mm-hmm. Um, and I was gonna say Kristen, Christine Lagarde, but she's probably the same age as I'm.
So, which somehow I think of her as a powerful, like, I would call her a powerful woman rather than a lady. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's interesting to think about, um. Those two words together and how they change together. Because I think that lady is like, you know, you're supposed to be ladylike, you're supposed to do things that mm-hmm.
We are supposed to, um, there's a, there's a set of rules and there is a kind of decorum that you and. Civility. And I think I've been thinking a lot about civility. 'cause we seem to be in completely uncivil times where you scratch someone just a tiny bit and you get this like a kind of a rabid dog as opposed to, oh, excuse me.
Mm-hmm. So I think that that, um, um, it's interesting, like ladies use a lot more in the south. Mm-hmm. Ladies is a lot more, um, in different parts of more old school. Uh, Europe. Mm-hmm. I mean, in Latin they still say chicas, which is girl, you know. Oh, nice. Chica. When did Chica? Um, which is, and, and I, you know, used to be like not a girl.
And I was like, you know what, that's just the phrase of speech. And it's interesting because the entire language is gendered to many languages are mm-hmm. Um, and our language is gendered. So it's interesting that we have words that we speak a kind of a, you know, um, uh. They, they, they tell, I think more about the person who set that tone or did the naming than they do about, um, necessarily the state of the world and where you're having that conversation.
Mm-hmm. I was imagine if you were down south, you were in Texas, you'd be talking about powerful ladies, and Richards would totally have called herself a powerful lady. Her sister Cecile, I'm sorry, her daughter Cecile might not, yeah, she might call herself a, you know, powerful woman, but also, you know, having been, been grown up in, in Texas might be okay with calling her Southern powerfully.
So,
yeah. Yeah. And what about power? What does power mean to you? Power means agency,
power means agency over all kinds of things. If you feel powerful, it gives you confidence to do things. I think feeling powerful, being powerful. And there's different kinds of power. Obviously there's, there's strong manpower and there's soft power and there's, but I think that power makes you feel like you can do things and feeling powerful makes you feel like you can accomplish things.
You can move things, you've got some, you matter in the world, and I think it's important to feel powerful.
Yeah. How have mentors changed your personal journey?
Well, I think they, I think that mentors and people who were close to me have always influenced me. Um, I was, because I know when the books you were gonna ask you were ask about are books that you like, and I was gonna talk about one 'cause it fits in with this, and I read it a few years ago and it was called, it's called Unrequited by an author who I now know and like very much Lisa Phillips.
Um, and what she talked about there was, was Ted Love from a woman's side. Because oftentimes we talk about men and, and, um, you know, kind of harassing women not knowing when to stop. And in this case it was about women having this, being in situations that they couldn't stop having these fictitious relations.
But then she took it in a different direction, which I loved, which was looking at teenage girls and the power of the crush. And the power of the crush. So I sort of think there's a bit of a mentor with a crush, which is that when you meet someone, you really admire them and you wanna be like them, you start doing things.
Mm-hmm. To emulate them. I mean, that may be more when they're peers, but I think that, you know, you fall in love with someone. You're like, oh my gosh, they're physicists. I wanna learn about. Because I wanna learn about art. Mm-hmm. And it's a way that you can make your way through the world exploring. So there's something very beautiful about it.
I mean, very emotional and it, but it also, it's, I, and I think, I think there's a thing about mentoring that's all that's very intimate and we don't really talk about that. You sort of go like, mm-hmm you know, I wanna do this and, and you know, this person's done that. And so I wanna know that person or be that person as opposed to.
Who are you really all the textures in your mind and what your life is like, and so what you can take. So I think that I've often found more recently mentors who are younger than me, which I really love. I really love people that, and so not just about teaching about technology, but about how they move through the world.
So women who are in their twenties and thirties, how they're thinking about parenting, how they're thinking about being a relationship, how they're thinking about work and relationship to, to their personal life, how they're all of those things. Um, and understanding with. More clarity, the trade-offs that you make.
So I think that mentorship always been those who are older and more powerful than myself and had walked that path before me. Mm-hmm. And those who are walking, you know, are just coming into their own and walking and that there's so many things we can, it's not a one-way street, it's really a two-way street.
Mm-hmm. It's not like, and you know, actually talk to a teacher, and teacher say, I start learning from my kids right away. And I think as a mother. You have children, you're like, oh man, I'm learning from them right now. Right. So it's like, it's not like I've got someone much to teach, but it's like, oh, they have so much to teach me.
Mm-hmm. So I think that that view of mentorship is always one that I've had, and I've had women who were so important to me, and sometimes I didn't even know it, which is, you know, I think that's a beautiful thing too.
Yeah. Well, you were referred by the amazing Carol Dunham. Love Carol. I'm on her board.
Yeah. So I was gonna ask thing of things you wanna do, right? Yeah. I was just gonna ask how, like, how did you guys meet? How did that relationship start? Um, yeah. And just talk about how great Carol is. I met, yeah, Carol's amazing.
So I met Carol through Tierney Tee. At Tierney, I've known, um, through Ted, I met Trinity through Ted, and we've become close friends, and actually her niece and my daughter are very best friends from college and were roommates, which is also just a wonderful thing that just happened without anyone knowing, um, or without anyone arranging.
And, uh, so when Tierney was talking about doing round the world in 80 fabrics. She said, I want you to meet Carol, who's gonna be my partner in this, because they're both N Geo explorers. And I met Carol and loved Carol. Of course, she's hard not to love the work that she does, the way that she thinks about the world, the way that she shows up.
It's just amazing. Mm-hmm. And I was thinking about her today, especially because it's the day of the dead. And two years ago I was in Santa Fe, which is where Carol was, 'cause it was just coming outta the pandemic. And, um. And we went to her house and she had a very robust celebration of the day of the day, which I had not ever seen.
When you're writing notes to those people that you love with pictures and then this whole mm-hmm. It was so beautiful and I'd seen it in different pieces, but I hadn't ever dove into a celebration around that. Mm-hmm. Um, and I had enormous admiration for her and for the work that she's doing, and enormous admiration for, um, uh, for her, for her way of, of, of.
Being and contributing in the world is just a joy. I was just said when they asked me to be on the board, I was like, of course. Absolutely. So, and it's, and it's turning out to be a really fun journey. It's turning out to be great.
Mm-hmm. I met her in Tierney at the same day at Mountain Film Festival. Oh, nice.
And tell, yeah. Yep. Great. But it, it's an example that I use telling people all the time of like, I'm such a big believer of like, put yourself in the spaces where Yes. Yes. The people that you admire are going to be absolutely, because you truly never know what is going to come from it. And I'm usually brave enough to go and say hi, introduce myself and having this podcast is a great excuse to invite people to hang out.
Of course, of course. Um, but there's, so I think we get nervous sometimes about. What, what spaces we belong in and do we fit in and are we ready yet to be in them? Mm-hmm. And, and the imposter syndrome, that's everywhere. But
I think that that gets back to your question about power. Yeah. Because if you feel powerful and you feel like you belong in any room, then you are also okay to go up to somebody and say, I like your work.
I like this, or I have a disagreement with, and some of that also has to do with knowing people that you want to engage with and having done a little bit of research about them. Because if you go up to somebody and you really know what they're working on and you can ask questions, that's a good conversation.
Yeah. Um, and you can also just do like a fan girl fanboy thing, but I think that's a different kind of conversation. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, you know, if you are in a room, you belong there. If you've been chosen to be a fellow somewhere, you belong there. You may not feel like it, but everyone else feels like it.
So maybe you're right and everyone else is wrong, but maybe everyone else is right, and you could begin to adjust things a little bit. I think that is that getting out of your own way is another thing. I think I would say, maybe not to my 8-year-old self, but maybe to my 23 or 24-year-old self or to my, in my, you know, 18-year-old self, which is to say if everyone says you're fabulous, just figure you're fabulous, and then maybe, you know, maybe you'll prove them wrong.
And it's the same way you just, I think women are so, they struggle so much with this, which is that, you know, the number of times when I say, oh, you look great. And they're like, oh no, I don't like this. I don't, my hair are my, it's like, you know what? You can just say thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And I learned that from my daughters.
I would say to my younger, my old older daughter who was very young then that looks great. She goes, thank you. And I was like, wow. I don't have to hear a whole litany about what you think about it. You're just, yeah, you're just thanking me for a compliment I gave you. And what it does is it makes you wanna give.
Makes you wanna give compliments, but when somebody is so down on themselves or down on somebody else, you're like, Ugh. Yeah. If you don't wanna spend time with yourself, why should I wanna spend time with yourself? That's a real, it's a real thing. Yeah.
We ask everybody on the podcast where you put yourself on the powerful lady scale.
If zero is average everyday human, and 10 is the most powerful lady you could imagine, where would you put yourself today and on an average day?
I mean, I think I put myself somewhere between seven and eight. Mm-hmm. Um, I think there's sometimes when I have felt very powerful. Might have been more than that, but I think, yeah, I think 7.5, 7.8 maybe.
That I feel like, um, I feel like I can. Uh, again, power gives you access. I feel like I can have access when I need to. Mm-hmm. I know not to waste people's time. Um, I feel I know not to do it just for ego reasons. I think that I most of the time feel. Strong and have agency doesn't occur to me. I mean, I still have moments of doubt like, oh my God, I'm gonna call this person, you know?
But we all do. Everyone does. Even the most powerful person has that right? Unless their complete sociopath. So, um, and there are a lot of those. Um, so yeah, I think that, that, um. I, uh, I don't have a huge domain that I mm-hmm. Oversee. Um, so I think in that way I tend to see my power being power that, you know, can work through other people or work with the networks of people rather than mm-hmm.
You know, me saying do this. And people are like, oh yeah. So.
That feels to me like a very, like free flowing power. Like there's something really, really lovely about not having a huge domain to Yeah. Operationally have to manage, but still Yeah. Be causing influence and movement and, mm-hmm. Um. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
The last thing that we've been asking everyone this year is, what do you need? What do you want? How can we help? What are you manifesting?
Mm mm mm. Um. It's hard because when you put it, you, me, I think you're assuming me as opposed to sort of looking at what's going on in the world right now. And I feel like looking at powerful ladies, there is no powerful ladies at the seed in the Middle East.
There are no powerful ladies in Russia who are taming in these monstrous Yeah. Um, eagle maniacal humans who are hellbent on global domination and destruction of anybody that doesn't agree with them. Um, so I would, I would wish that there were. Get women at the table. I'm actually on a board of an organization called Women at the Table, which is, which is doing exactly that, trying to get women in every single table, in every single conversation where it matters that, you know, they're, they're developing policy and things.
So I think that piece is important to me. I think I'm trying to manifest something that's more creative on the, on the, the, the creative work that I'm doing and trying to understand it. Really dive in, immerse mind itself in something I'm, I'm not quite sure what that's gonna be. It was very much theater and performance for the last six years.
Um, and now I'm thinking it, you know, it may have something to do with ai. It may have something to do with more actually, um, agency in that area. Mm-hmm. So, um, uh, and I think, you know, in terms of helping, it's just everybody who's got something that's, that's interesting that they need to bring into the world.
And, um, I'm always interested to, to listen. Can't always help. Yeah. But always interested to listen. What I have found that's extraordinary, and I suspect you probably have as well, is that when someone tells you something and you're like, I don't really know, but I know that sum and I will once something is, you know, one of the things I love is, um, asking the question and also asking myself constantly the question, what's the, what's something new that you've seen for the first time in the last couple months?
And you know, it won't be the last. And, um, I mean, you know, the heart surgery for me is one of those, oh, you know, you're leaving what's supposed to be the best in the world and going someplace else, um, that you are. Uh, um, I started seeing something a couple weeks ago. I was meeting all of these very talented people with really what I would call platinum careers.
Great companies, great positions, big oversight, big, um, not finding work. I was like, oh, I see it when you're 60, but now you're seeing it when you're 50. That's different. Mm-hmm. And if you're beginning to see when are we gonna see these changes of there so many jobs that are being disrupted and the answers we're already seeing it.
Yeah. We're just not, we're just not recognizing that quite for what that is yet. So I think I'm very curious about how that will play out and what that will look like and the, you know, the dislocation because people were so, uh, so wedded to their identity as their job. And if that doesn't go, then it's, that's a tough road.
Yeah. To lose your job and your entire identity and try to figure out where you go next. It's a very tough road. Yes. People need a lot of support for that.
They do. But there's so much, there's just so much, so many cool things to discover going through that process. Yes,
yes.
Because. It's, there's a whole part of you that hasn't been cracked open yet that you, you get to find
Right.
I was gonna say another book 'cause I know you mentioned the books that I love one of those. It's great. Bruce Fier wrote a book called, life is In the Transitions, and it was really the first big look at transitions. Um, since Gil Shehe in passages and talked about 250 people looked at. And what he came up with, which I think is a great metaphor, is, um, that life is a series of, or life is basically a series of transitions and that the average person goes through five in their life.
And the average transition takes five years from, that's crazy end. That's right. Yeah. You're like, if I were to say, what's the transition? You're like, oh, you know, six months a year, five years is average. So what that means is we spend 25 years of our life in transition if we're lucky to have a long life.
Mm-hmm. Um. Which means we've gotta be really comfortable with ambiguity and be gentle with ourselves about what it takes for transitions. Because I think most of the time you're like, oh, you'll get over it. Oh, like, no, pain is okay, but you need in the other side. And then when you're in the middle of transitions, you're like, oh my God, this is so hard.
And, and you get depressed and you get frustrated and you get hard on yourself and you get hard on other people 'cause they're not supporting you. And you know, it's, um, yeah. But so it's a, it's a great reframing. One. The other things he talks about is a series of life quakes with the transitions, and he said, sometimes you have a pile up where you have four or five at once, and when you meet someone, you're like, you know, I, I lost my mother, I lost my father.
I, you know, I lost my job. Mm-hmm. I lost my apartment. I broke up my birthday. You're like, whoa. Right. That they, yeah. Come in these waves, these quakes that are really dramatic and mm-hmm. I think it's, I think looking for metaphors to understand transition, to understand how long and how complicated things are.
Um, and then to give that time and space is
valuable. Give ourselves patience and grace, which I know I am. They're always part of my daily meditations because they are fleeting. Yeah. Well, it has been such a pleasure to speak with you today.
Me too. Me too. You wonderful.
How, how can everyone find you, follow you, support you, reach out to you for listening and maybe for contribution?
Anything? I, um, LinkedIn is probably the best place because I mm-hmm. Look at that every day and, um. Um, it's just Sunny Bates is my, mm-hmm. S-U-N-N-Y-B-A-T-E-S. My email is sunny@sunnybates.com. Um, sometimes things get lost there, but, you know, most of the time I, I do a little bit of social, but not too much.
I've really tried to stay away from it 'cause I feel it's so addictive. Um, and yeah, and want to understand things before I get too wedded to them. But I, you know, I, I do jump in occasionally and dabble so.
Yeah. Amazing. Alright. Yeah. Well thank you so much total. This has been such a great conversation. Um, I agree.
Just thank you Okay. For everything you're doing in the world. Oh, thank you for all the, this is lovely
and the powerful ladies, you're convening. It's wonderful. Thanks so much. Take care. Bye-Bye.
All the links to connect with Sunny on our show notes@thepowerfulladies.com. Please subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening. If you can leave us a rating and review, join us on Instagram at Powerful Ladies and to connect directly with me, visit kara duffy.com or Kara on Duffy on Instagram.
I'll be back next week with a brand new episode and new amazing guest. Until then, I hope you're taking on being powerful in your life. Go be awesome and up to something you love.
Related Episodes
Episode 236: Carroll Dunham | Anthropologist, Explorer, Author
Episode 217: Mountainfilm with Suzan Beraza and Shae LaPlace
Episode 255: Dr. Tierney Thys | NatGeo Explorer + Co-Founder Around The World in 80 Fabrics
Website: www.sunnybates.com
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Created and hosted by Kara Duffy
Audio Engineering & Editing by Jordan Duffy
Production by Amanda Kass
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Music by Joakim Karud
