Episode 42: Fighting for Justice & Changing Lives | Ashley Telleen & Lauren Butler | Criminal Defense Attorneys

Ashley Telleen and Lauren Butler are the powerhouse duo behind Butler & Telleen, a criminal defense firm serving Denver and Boulder. Both former public defenders, they share a deep commitment to fairness, justice, and helping clients turn their lives around. We talk about their paths to law, why they chose defense over prosecution, the realities of drug legalization and decriminalization, and how being women in the courtroom can be an advantage. Their stories prove that the right advocates can change lives, and that balance, integrity, and passion can redefine what a law career looks like.

“We really want to be client centered and make sure that they’re getting all the options, they’re making intelligent choices. We can guide them. Ultimately they’re going to trust you more and get a better result if they’re involved in the process.”

— Ashley Telleen

“When you’re so overworked, you stop loving what you do. Now we have our goals aligned and we’re really happy with our caseload and our balance and with how things are going.”

— Lauren Butler

• Show Notes

  Boulder
  Colorado
  Denver
  Innocence Project
  University of Colorado
  University of Colorado Law School
  Korey Wise Innocence Project
  Central Park Five
  Timothy Masters
  Los Angeles
  Video Game Producer
  Peace Corps
  Stage Manager
  Disney
  DNA
  Blood Spatter
  Asbestos
  Strength Finder 
  Decriminalizing
  Illinois New Drug Laws & Processes
  Drug Addiction
  Mental Health Issues 
  DUI
  Vail
  C.A.S.A. 
  Veterans
  Diversion Program Colorado
  Path to Home story
  Webfest Berlin

• Transcript

  Follow along using the Transcript

  Chapters:

  00:00 Meet Ashley Telleen & Lauren Butler

  05:12 Paths to the law and finding purpose

  12:45 From prosecution to criminal defense

  19:58 Life as female trial lawyers

  27:18 Building expertise across diverse cases

  33:50 The realities of drug legalization & decriminalization

  41:25 Addressing root causes of crime

  47:57 Creating change before charges are filed

  54:10 Starting Butler & Telleen Law Firm

  1:00:00 Partnership dynamics & shared vision

  1:15:42 Finding balance in a demanding profession

  1:27:09 Client-centered defense strategies

  1:33:00 Why strong female lawyers matter in court

    When you're so overworked, you stop loving what you do. Now we have our goals aligned with each other and we're really happy with, our caseload and our balance and how things are going.

  We really want to be client centered and make sure that they're getting all the options, that they're making intelligent choices and we can guide them, but ultimately they're gonna trust you more and you're gonna get a better result if they're involved in that process.

  That's Lauren Butler and Ashley Telleen, and this is The Powerful Ladies podcast.

  Hey guys, I'm your host, Kara Duffy, and this is The Powerful Ladies Podcast where I invite my favorite humans, the awesome, the up to something, and the extraordinary to come and share their story. I hope that you'll be left, entertained, inspired, and moved to take action towards living your most powerful life.

  I am so excited for you guys to hear today's podcast. Ashley and Lauren are two female lawyers based in Denver and Boulder, Colorado, who in the past year opened their own firms specializing in criminal defense. On this episode, we discuss the criminal justice system, the realities behind drug legalization and decriminalization, why defense attorneys are the true white knights of the justice system.

  And now being a female lawyer can be your biggest advantage.

  Ashley and Lauren welcome to the Power Podcast. Thank you. Thank you for having us. We're really excited to be talking with you today. Yay. Let's begin by each of you introducing yourselves and saying what you're up to.

  So this is Lauren Butler. I am an attorney in Colorado. Ashley and I are partners.

  We opened our own law firm earlier this year. It's called the Law Firm of Butler in Taline. And we're based in Denver, but practice all over Colorado.

  And so I think Lauren actually pretty much said basically what I was gonna say, but I'm Ashley Telleen. And I think we've been lawyers for about six or seven years now.

  And we're just really excited to be starting our own firm and have two strong women running it and being our own boss. Very cool. Congratulations. Thank you so much. What type of law do you guys focus on? So we mostly do criminal law. That's the basis of our practice. I am a former public defender.

  I was a public defender for many years. I knew pretty much right away when I was in law school that's what I wanted to do. Got involved with the Colorado Innocence Project and basically just made my entire law school experience about helping indigent clients who couldn't afford an attorney.

  Lauren had a little bit of a different path, so she can tell you about that. I started off on the opposite track. So Ashley and I went to law school together. That's how we know each other. We were really good friends in law school. After law school, I went on the DA track. So I prosecuted for a couple of years quite frankly, because I was very naive and did not realize what it actually meant to be a prosecutor.

  So I only lasted a couple of years, then went into private practice did a little bit of civil stuff as well as criminal stuff. Hated the civil stuff, and have been focused on criminal defense ever since.

  What made you hate the prosecuting side and make you switch to defense?

  So I became a prosecutor because I know that they hold the power and I wanted to be in control of, doing what was fair and what was right, and what was like a just result.

  For the cases and the defendants. After actually practicing in that world. It became very clear, very quickly that I was one of the only kind of fair prosecutors who, would dismiss cases when they needed to be dismissed. And if someone just made a bad mistake, like I would give them a chance for what's called a deferred judgment out here where they can complete some probation and then get it, get the charge off their record.

  So it wasn't just so black and white conviction, or not, no conviction. And everyone else around me in the prosecution world seemed to only be going after convictions and it felt very unethical and very unfair. And that was so the opposite of why I became a prosecutor. So it's actually why I feel more comfortable and.

  I think being a defense attorney is more aligned with what my original goals were. As a prosecutor,

  it's really interesting. I, because you would think being outside of the system that. The white hat, the person wearing the white hat, the good guy is the prosecutor. So you naturally would think that if you wanna do what's right and what's is fair, and just that you would be on that side.

  So it's really interesting to hear you say that, to really fulfill that you need to be on the defense side, which is typically known as, wearing the black hat. Like maybe questionable, trying to get people off that maybe shouldn't be get getting off. Totally.

  Defense attorneys get a bad rap man.

  But when you're actually in the industry and you see it firsthand, everyone who is not in the criminal law world who I tell these our stories to, they're, they have the same reaction as you. They assume that the prosecutors are, the good guys and the defense attorneys are the bad guys trying to get murderers off, like with no loophole or something like that.

  Exactly. And it's really much more complicated and in depth and not quite as black and white as that.

  I've also personally never felt I've always been strongly committed to the idea of innocent until proven guilty. And I never thought that would be something that would be in question in the United States until the past 18 months.

  And yeah, I am so much more in a place of. Really getting where you guys are coming from as needing great defense. When I never thought that would be something that someone like myself who isn't a criminal and has one of the cleanest boringest records possible,

  okay. Would

  feel that. I'm like do I need to know a good defense lawyer because I don't know if I can accidentally get myself in trouble.

  It's interesting that you say that because I am the same way. I'm a total rule follower, like absolute 100% rule follower. I don't speed, I don't even have a traffic ticket. And so people are always asking me, how I can defend these people who have done these heinous things.

  And for me that's, it's, that's exactly what it's about. What you just said is that, these people have constitutional rights, not in every case, but in some cases they actually are getting railroaded by the prosecutor. And they need somebody to protect their rights. And for me, when I have somebody with a really serious case, it's not about just getting them off, it's about getting the right result.

  Yeah. So are they addicted to drugs? Do they need substance abuse help? Are they mentally ill and can't get the medication they need, which is something that we see pretty frequently in the job that we do. And so my goal is not just get this person acquitted. It's let's figure out how we can help this person be a productive member of society.

  I honestly wish more people were asking that last question. How do we get more people to be productive contributors to society? Society be because it's exactly, it's bigger than law. It's bigger than right or wrong. It's, looking at the opioid crisis, it's looking at the homeless population that we have.

  It's looking at veterans who are struggling. It's looking at anyone who is currently being left behind in any way. And I, we talk about why we being the American community and the world at large, like why are things changing? Why are things maybe worse than it felt like they were before? And I think we're skipping over some of the bigger breakdowns in.

  Taking care of each other. That used to be just part of woven into the community or the family.

  Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I think that if, especially in a system like the criminal justice system, if both sides work together for this common goal, we would have so much better results and, more productive members of society.

  It's just unfortunately not always that case.

  I think the other problem that we have too is that the resources just aren't there. Good point. I have clients who will tell me that, the reason that some situation happened was because they couldn't get their mental health medication and they called and tried to get an appointment with their therapist, but because, they were on Medicare or Medicaid or something like that, it was backed up three months and they couldn't get in to see them.

  The homeless thing is a really huge issue, particularly here in Denver and Boulder. The Denver Metro and Colorado. We have a huge issue with homelessness. And there just unfortunately aren't a lot of resources and I think. If we were putting more resources into, mental health facilities and shelters and trying to get people into housing, that's actually more productive than putting it into jails and prisons and things like that.

  Yeah. 'cause then we go down an entire rabbit hole of what does jail really do? If we're still committed to that question of how do we make everyone a better contributor to society? There's so much research and topics lately of do you really get rehabilitated in our current jail system and is it set up that way?

  Like one of the studies that I find really fascinating is the one about hugs and the psychologist that was doing research about how many hugs people needed in a day and when they took away the ability to touch in jails. Like even if the priest would come in or the counselor, the fact that they can't give hugs anymore in certain states and prisons.

  It actually increased the I don't have it in front of me, so we'll have to Google it and put it in the show notes, but it either increased the rate of returning to jail or it increased the rate of being punished in jail, like solitary or something else. And Interesting. It's a hug. It's free.

  Like what? Yeah. I haven't read that particular study, but I'm not surprised by that at all. And I can tell you because I've been to different jails all over Colorado and there are certain jails, the newer jails, where they really, like you're talking to somebody through a glass window and there's, you can't even really give 'em a piece of paper to sign or anything like that.

  At the Boulder County Jail 'cause it's an older jail, they don't have it set up that way. So you actually, I can put my hand on my client's shoulder and if they're crying or whatever. And I think that actually the people in the Boulder County Jail are doing better than the people in some of those other jails.

  And that may be part of the reason for that.

  Yeah. And also in jails like the Boulder County Jail, they have their inmates in these bigger pods where they have more interaction with each other. They're all hanging out and eating and spending their days together and more interaction like, human interaction that way.

  So I think that all goes into the same concept, which is really important.

  Earlier Ashley, you mentioned the Innocence Project. Do you wanna explain what that is and how you got involved?

  Sure. When I first started in law school and I went to the University of Colorado Law School here in Boulder I was looking to, find some.

  Some program, some way to volunteer to help out. And I came across the Colorado Innocence Project in Colorado at cu. It's now called the Cory Wise Innocence Project, who's one of the Central Park five. And I can talk a little bit about that too, but why that changed and how he got involved.

  But when I was gonna law school, it was the Colorado Innocence Project and basically what they do is we take as law students under the supervision of licensed attorneys we take cases where people have been convicted of pretty serious crimes and are spending a significant amount of time in prison, but they have a claim of actual innocence.

  So there's been new DNA tests or new evidence has come in that they didn't have when they were prosecuting the case, things like that. And we essentially review their cases. And try to get that evidence to the court so that we can fight their conviction if we believe that they're actually innocent.

  And when it, when you were part of it, what were some of the results that you saw?

  So I will tell you that when you're doing a post-conviction case prediction, particularly a wrongful conviction case, they can take years. So most of the cases that I was working on in law school are probably still pending.

  So I unfortunately wasn't able to see any of the cases that I was working on through to the end. But, once I graduated, you pass 'em on to a different law student who just keeps plugging away at it. But I think I in the news a lot, over the past couple years I think people have been seeing some of these wrongful convictions overturned.

  And I was talking about the Central Park five earlier. That's a perfect example. That those were the five African American boys in New York who were wrongfully convicted of raping a jogger in Central Park. And they just had a actually really great television series called When They See Us Yes.

  Come out. It's absolutely beautiful. I sobbed the entire time I was watching it. So I would encourage your listeners to check that out if they're interested in it, but Corey Wise was one of the Central Park five. And after he got compensation for his wrongful conviction, he pledged a percentage of that money to go back into the system to try and help others that have been wrongfully convicted.

  How amazing. Yeah. So he donated a whole bunch of money to the Colorado Innocence Project. So then it was renamed the Corey Wise Innocence Project. And I actually had an opportunity at the dedication ceremony to meet him and have a pretty substantive conversation with him. And it was just a really life changing conversation.

  He was so articulate and smart and humble and positive despite what had happened to him. And it was a really amazing thing to see. So I'm really excited that people are starting to tell their story. And hopefully that will help people understand, when some of these other wrongful conviction cases come up.

  So yeah, that was really powerful to me. Yeah. Even just to think, how many people will be wrongly accused for such a heinous crime for so long and. And wanna give back. It's, I think it's, it that alone speaks to his character. And I don't know, I just think it's amazing that there are people who are, who deal with so much that they don't deserve.

  And to still be there and wanting to give back and make a difference, and not just take the money and go hide on a beach for the rest of their life. It's it's really honorable. Yeah. And I'm glad that those people are in our society.

  I actually had, so I had, there's another pretty, if you're in Colorado, you know about another case, Timothy Masters.

  Who was also wrongfully convicted when he was a teenager. And I also had an opportunity to speak with him and both him and Corey Wise. I asked them the same question. I asked them, what was it like to be in prison knowing that you were innocent and how did that sort of affect, were you angry?

  What was going on there? And interestingly, they both gave me very similar answers. And that was that no, they weren't mad. And had they been mad and bitter, they probably wouldn't have made it out of prison ever. And so they chose, both of them chose to be positive and just hold on to hope that their convictions were gonna get overturned.

  And ultimately fortunately that's what happened for both of them.

  I just like that it also is a great reminder for everyone who we're so good at making our circumstances be so huge and monumental for wherever we're at from our perspective. Whatever we're dealing with. Yeah. And to think that there are innocent people who are in jail for things that they didn't do, that have to deal with everything that creates, how it completely changes your entire life and the lives of everyone that you care about.

  And if they can get through it and be positive and come out of it and get back into control of their destiny, everyone, the rest of us who are not dealing with those extreme circumstances look, think about what you can do right now.

  What exactly it put, it puts our lives and our experiences into better perspective.

  When comparing it to these stories and these struggles and, things that. Some of these people have had to go through and have prevailed and is now, are now, doing very positive and influential things with their stories and their experiences. So it's beautiful stories that are few and far between, I think, unfortunately.

  But when you do hear these stories, they are very inspiring.

  Yeah. What, what made you guys want to be lawyers in the first place or go to law school?

  We actually both had prior careers before going to law school. And interestingly enough, we were both working out in the entertainment industry in Los Angeles at the same time.

  For me, I was a video game producer for the majority of my time out in LA and, being in the entertainment industry, it was just. It was fun. I was out there for about five and a half years. But it ultimately was just so superficial and so surface. And after five and a half years I looked back at my time out in LA and in the entertainment industry and it was all fluff.

  I didn't really have any significant relationships or friends or, a future career. It was just bouncing around from one party to the next, entertainment meeting and I just wanted to do something more with my life. So I had what I now dub my quarter life crisis. It's an important growth period.

  Everyone should go through it if you haven't yet. A lot of positivity came for me but I ended up. Searching for something more. And I actually applied to the Peace Corps and was rejected because at the time they had very little funding. And I, apparently being a video game producer did not have many skills that I could offer to to the Peace Corps.

  I don't

  think I ever knew that about you. Yeah.

  And so my recruiter very kindly and gently suggested that maybe you go volunteer some places and get some skills if this is really something that you wanna do. Which kind of got me into volunteering for, wildlife places and environmental places, which then in turn made me wanna become an environmental lawyer, which is actually the reason why I went to law school.

  But then the first day of my criminal law class, I. Immediately switched courses and realized that criminal law is what I wanted to do. So that's my very long story of how I ended up a lawyer. Not at all. But

  before we move on to Ashley's story, I wanna know what happened in that class?

  What did you see or feel like? What was it? Yeah, so it was the very first day of my criminal law class, and I remember my professor for our reading assignment that week was we read all of these cases about really brutal and heinous crimes, like really explicit murders and sex assaults on children and things like that, where all of these defendants.

  Who were very clearly guilty, got off on technicalities. And then we had a very interesting discussion about, how does that make you feel? And a lot of people were like it's the government's burden to which is absolutely accurate, to do everything correctly because the stakes are so high here.

  So if they don't live up to that burden, and if they mess up along the way, then the just result is a dismissal or a retrial or something like that. And, that is really what kind of made me wanna become the prosecutor that I wanted to be, was I wanted to make sure that people who did these heinous and horrible things were held accountable appropriately.

  And, the cases were tried. Properly and the evidence was gathered ethically and constitutionally. Because when the stakes are so high people should be held accountable for their actions. And it was really disheartening to be reading all of these cases and these stories of these people who got off on these technicalities because it wasn't done properly.

  So for me, that kind of changed my whole perspective and that's what made me wanna become a prosecutor and go into criminal law.

  Very cool. Ashley, what, how did you become a lawyer?

  As Lauren said, we both had prior careers, so I was living in LA and working as a stage manager for Disney Entertainment Productions.

  I did that for several years. It was a fun job. Just like Lauren said, I, I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed all of the people that I worked with. But, even for me, even in high school, I had always been very civically engaged. Very political very active in the political process and.

  Much like Lauren, I just decided at some point that I wanted to do something a little bit more substantive. And I actually went to law school. When I went to law school, I thought two things. So first is I went to law school thinking I was gonna become a politician which I can probably never be now because I've been a public defender and everybody will use that against me.

  But the other thing that I went into law school knowing was that I absolutely didn't wanna be a trial lawyer. And now I love being a trial lawyer. Yeah. Yeah, trial's actually probably one of my favorite things. I love being in court. I love making arguments, all that good stuff. So yeah, for me, I got involved in mock trial and that's what really made me.

  Reevaluate what kind of law I wanted to practice and what I wanted to go into.

  I imagine that trial, being a trial lawyer speaks to the politician who likes to debate in you.

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's very, and yeah it's, there are definitely I've noticed there are some skills that you need as a trial lawyer that you wouldn't expect.

  For example, when I was a stage manager, and for those of you who don't know what a stage manager does, basically, we're, on live shows, movie premier, stuff like that, we're in charge of everything. So the entire technical crew, all of the actors, performers, customers, we're basically running the ship.

  And, one thing that I learned being a stage manager is how to you have to talk to different people with different personalities differently. In order for them to respond. That really translates with the clients that we have in criminal law as well. And I always have people ask me, how on earth did you go from being a stage manager to a criminal defense attorney?

  That's just crazy. But in fact there are actually quite a few similarities between the jobs. So I don't think people give lawyers enough credit for all of the the organizing, all of the homework, all of the, what you don't see at court that you have to do the, like you mentioned, the influence, the preparation, like how you are going to tell this story so that it lands for the people who are deciding whether they're on the jury or some other setup, depending on what type of case it is.

  But it's really, it's fascinating because very much like a show. When you're speaking in the courtroom, that's what it's like a, it's like an iceberg, right? It's just like the tip of everything else that's happened.

  Yeah. Absolutely. And the other thing I would say too, that a lot of people don't realize about lawyers, and particularly criminal defense lawyers, is we have to be experts in everything.

  Because we get, cases that have DNA, we have cases where you're dealing with blood spatter. We have cases where you're dealing with, fingerprints. Fingerprints, yeah. All this type of, technical evidence, forensic evidence. Yeah. And so you really, I had a case too where I actually had to become an expert in what it was like to be homeless.

  Yeah. And I had to become an expert in one of my cases about asbestos and the dangers and how you can, how you have to properly remove it. And so it, it all depends on the nature of the case that you have in front of you.

  Being a lawyer is on my list of alternative career paths that I keep, I've thought about my whole life and you guys are definitely selling me more on it than not.

  I dunno if that's a good thing or not.

  The

  I encourage all of the clients 'cause I'm also a coach and a consultant for personal business or finances and I encourage everyone, one of my clients to do the strength finders test. I dunno if you guys have taken this at all, but it says that there are 34 strengths that humans have and they rank them based on this test you take.

  And they, their basic philosophy is lean, lean in on what you're good at and do without thinking and do naturally versus spending all of your time trying to fix your weaknesses. 'cause most people, that's what they do. And my number one strength is learning. Like I am such a nerd. Like I don't care what it is, I like to learn about it.

  So the fact that you guys are like, yes, an asbestos and this, I'm like, ooh.

  Yeah. So little tangent. I would love to talk about like how law and justice are changing in Colorado since that's where you guys are experts. In particular with how much laws have been changing with Colorado being a leader in legalizing drugs and being seen as a progressive state.

  That's really looking at, decriminalizing things in general, that it just with drugs being the biggest thing that has been getting notoriety.

  Yeah, it's not a hidden story that Colorado was one of the first to legalize marijuana. And the way they did that was they first started by decriminalizing it where if you were caught with marijuana or using marijuana, it would be a fine and, not a crime where you would get punished.

  And then that slowly worked its way into becoming now part of our Colorado constitution. And we really, led the story, the force in that, and it's now being replicated in many other states. It's interesting from our perspective because everyone is oh, weed is legal in Colorado.

  You can do anything that you want when it comes to marijuana, but we actually still get a lot of marijuana related criminal cases because what people don't realize is that there's a lot of regulations. It's very complicated, a lot of laws that go around it, what you can do, what you can't do. Every county has their own individual regulations and laws.

  Some counties. You're allowed to grow it in your house, but the odor of marijuana can't waft past your front door, which you know is impossible. Exactly. So you know, it's laughable, but that's how certain counties are trying to still fight back against this, even though it's legal. And so we get a lot of cases where it starts off as like kind of a.

  Very minor, odor crime where the odor of marijuana comes out and then they go into the house and they realize, oh, you're actually growing a lot more plants than you're legally allowed to, and you're selling them to, selling your weed, your product to all of these other people illegally, not through, the legal process.

  Maybe you're selling them across state lines. So it grows and it snowballs. And then these people are facing mandatory prison time, not county jail, but actual prison time with felonies for weed charges. And so it's really interesting to see that. It's not just, oh, it's legal and it's

  totally fine.

  But yeah. But one thing I will say that Colorado has done, which I thought was a really smart move on the legislature's part, is they've separated out all of the drug convictions from regular crimes. With felonies in Colorado, we have class one through six, felony, one being a homicide, a six being, some sort of major property crime or something like that.

  But now we also have what's called a, a drug felony and a drug misdemeanor. And the reason that they decided to separate those out was because they wanted to start looking at the drug cases as more of a public health issue rather than a criminal issue. And if you're convicted or plead guilty to one of the drug charges first of all, there's a presumption that the judge is supposed to give you probation.

  So the judge theoretically, according to the law, is supposed to exhaust all forms of treatment before they sentence you to jail or prison. The length of the sentences is also smaller than regular crimes. And there's really, they're trying to have a focus on treatment. So I personally I'm really happy that they did it that way.

  I think it is better. I think it is helping people get treatment, when they otherwise might not have, when all of the drug cases were lumped in with other regular, like actual violent crimes and stuff like that. So that is one thing that Colorado has done that I think has really been helpful in terms of, drugs and the drug issue.

  Yeah. I was really impressed when, I think it was Illinois that recently did a big move also for decriminalization of drug crimes. And I thought it was really interesting how they split the, all the money that would be moved to a lot of the resources that you guys spoke to. So giving money to homeless rehabilitation, giving money to drug rehabilitation, giving money to having resources to keep people out of jail.

  So when they did get. Arrested for something. The paths were like, here's your eight steps before it becomes, it goes to trial basically. So it was interesting that they brought in such a big community, such a big group from different parts of the community to figure out like, how do we tackle this?

  And it was just cool from my perspective to see leaders who were committed, like we started at the beginning, like committed to solving the issue versus just getting more convictions and Right. Like points on the board.

  Yeah. I think it's really important, and like Ashley spoke about, the judges are supposed to sentence these offenders and exhaust all other possible alternatives before they put them in prison.

  I think that's really important because it's no surprise that, our prison systems are in incredibly overcrowded. And, if addiction is a disease and if that's the only thing that you have that you did wrong, is succumb to this disease. When there are treatments out there, there's all of these resources that are available that could be more appropriate than just a prison sentence.

  Our judges here are, they're required to exhaust all of those other remedies and all of those other possibilities, sentencing alternatives before they start overcrowding the prisons with people who are just dealing with, drug addiction and these, this disease that they're trying to battle.

  And

  probably could be productive members of society if they get the help that they need. Yeah.

  Yeah. 'cause I are you guys maybe for Colorado, do you know the statistics for how many, people in jail or in the criminal system are like related to drugs or drug addictions or abuse in general?

  Because I'm, as I, I imagine that crosses over so many other crimes.

  Absolutely. And I don't have specific numbers unfortunately, but what I will tell you is that in my experience and particularly, as a public defender when I was representing indigent clients, all of that crosses over.

  And the other thing that you see a lot is people who have very serious mental health issues that aren't getting the treatment that they need, that are then self-medicating with the, these illegal substances. And it's actually just making things even worse for them. Because not only do they have a mental illness that they're not being treated for, from the get go, now they're adding all of these, substances on top of it and it's making their behavior more erratic and worse.

  So I would say, I, like I said, I don't have a specific number, but I would say at least two thirds of the people in the criminal justice system have some sort of substance abuse issue. Yeah. Yeah.

  And another thing that Colorado has done that's I think has been really productive and really great is many of the jurisdictions here have started their own started.

  A, a court run drug intensive treatment program or addiction intensive probation. Some sort of, one of these sentencing alternatives that I spoke about earlier. For instance, I used to be a prosecutor up in Vail and we had a drug court and DUI court, which is a very intense probationary sentence.

  These, and you have to qualify, you have to be accepted. And it, you have to have for instance, multiple DUIs before you can be eligible for a program like this, but it basically keeps you out of, in prison, in jail for these very lengthy sentences that could be a sent a possible sentence for these crimes.

  And instead it puts you in this very intensive probationary sentence, probationary period where you're meeting with your probation officer, you're meeting with your, drug treatment person multiple times a week. You're going into court with your whole group who's also in this drug sentencing court or DUI sentencing court.

  And they also, a lot of these jurisdictions have these specialized programs for mental health, for veterans, mental health veterans, very specialized. Issues that are at the root cause of these crimes. And I think Colorado is very progressive in that sense. And most of our jurisdictions do offer those alternatives, which is great.

  And I will say back when I was a public defender, I was on one of the treatment teams for a drug court as well here in Boulder County. And it really is because every decision that we make as a team. So you have a public defender representative, you have a DA representative, you have a judge, you have the probation officer, you have the person's therapist who's been working with them on their treatment.

  And if they have a slip up, it's not an automatic okay, now you're going to prison. We will sit down as a team and talk about what we can do to help this person get back on track.

  Yeah. And like Ashley said, I was actually the DA representative on my team when I was a, when I was practicing as a prosecutor up in Vail, Colorado.

  And that's exactly what we did as well up there, is we would all sit down as a team and figure out what this person actually needs to get back on track versus just kicking them out of the program and putting them in jail.

  And the, and then what I find fascinating about this this process is that I imagine that there are people in this program who, that's the most number of people who have ever cared about them in their lives.

  It is so true and they've been in front of a judge so many times in their lives and that judge is always lecturing them and telling them everything they did wrong and sentencing them to, sending them to jail. And in this situation it's reversed. The judge becomes more of a mentor and your cheerleader and showing respect for you.

  And this is very often the first time that a lot of these people have been respected and praised and cheered on by a group of professionals who are usually just beating them down and telling them everything that they've done wrong. It's a very positive experience for them, and it actually has lowered recidivism rates very significantly.

  And for people who dunno what that means, that's repeat crimes and repeat jail time. Yes. Yes, correct. Yeah, and it just makes obviously you guys get involved at a point where the crimes have already committed and often committed multiple times at that point, or multiple convictions. It just makes you wonder what could we be doing as a society where you get five, six people on your team at the beginning or like way or before?

  Yeah. I have quite a few friends who are part of CASA here in, in Orange County. Oh yeah. Court appointed special advocate for foster kids. And, orange County, California is one of the highest discrepancies in income in the entire US from people making hundreds of millions of dollars a year to people like living, homeless all blocks away.

  And it blows my mind that there, right now we have like one casa for every 10 kids that need it.

  Yeah. Wow. And

  it's just, it's crazy to me how many kids in America are in foster care that the, it's 70% chance that you're going to end up in the criminal system if you're a foster kid and like it's kids.

  I guess it, I guess a lot of it comes down to what you believe humanity is humanity, na like naturally good or naturally bad, right? That can dictate how people address humanity as a thing. So where do you guys fall on, are people naturally good and there, there are ways to make everyone a good citizen?

  Or are you, like, where do you fall on that concept?

  So look, I have had a couple of. Clients in my career as a lawyer that are just, they are just bad people. But I find that to be few, very few and far between. Yeah. I think that most people end up in the criminal justice system because of, something that happened to them in their past or something that they're not dealing with.

  That's mostly what we see in the criminal justice system. I have this big thing with veterans, which just drives me nuts because you see these people who have fought for our country, who come back, who have PTSD and some pretty significant mental health issues and they end up getting caught up in the criminal justice system because they can't get the help that they need.

  And so I'm a huge proponent of trying to get to these people before they end up in the criminal justice system. I think that's really important. And that's why, in my career as a lawyer, I've been trying to get involved with drug court and veterans court and all of that kind of stuff because I think and you're right, that once they hit drug court or veterans court, that means that they've already been, caught up in the criminal justice system.

  Yeah. So one thing that a couple of counties are doing here in Colorado is they're piloting a program called diversion, which essentially means that the first time you pick up a crime instead of forcing you to take a plea deal or something like that they send you through a restorative justice program.

  And then if you successfully complete that and do whatever treatment or whatever they think is necessary, you actually don't end up with a conviction. That case will get dismissed and you could seal your record and basically get a fresh start. So I think that's definitely a start. I think I live in Boulder County where there is a very significant homeless population and a very significant mental health population much more than other counties in Colorado, I think.

  So one of the things that they're trying to do is they're trying to train police officers, like specific police officers in deescalating mental health situations so that if they get called out to something. To, to an incident that's very clearly mental health related. How can we de-escalate that situation so we don't have to arrest that person?

  How can we get them treatment instead? And in addition to that, Boulder County is also piloting a what's called path to home. So a way to get into housing for homeless people. And I have to say, I wish I, I should have looked up this article before we started talking. There was just an article in the paper a couple of weeks ago about this program, this apartment complex where their housing, these homeless people trying to get them back on track.

  And in the, I think it's been going since 2016, I wanna say. I could be wrong about that. But in that entire time, the police have never been called to the apartment complex. Nobody has ever been arrested at the apartment complex where these people are living. And so I think it's, just piloting this program, and what's happened with it shows that if we can get some of these people off the streets and into housing, it re they really can be productive members of society.

  So I think, Colorado is doing some things to help that. But I think we could also be doing more to get these people before they enter the criminal justice system.

  Yeah, I think it's important too because, we're, Ashley and I come in, we, and from our perspective and our experience, we're at the back end, like she said, we need to figure out what is gonna be the best way to implement some of these resources and opportunities and changes on the front end before.

  It gets to the point where Ashley and I have to get involved.

  I just heard on NPR recently, they were talking about a local like path to home type of concept here. And in the first year they did comparisons with how much it cost taxpayers when homeless people go to the er from, for reoccurring everyday medical conditions to accidents.

  And those who have been placed in homes. If the home costs say $13,000 a person for a year their medical bills would have been without being in the home 30,000. So just the fact that they all are also healthier, going to the er, less, like you can imagine if you have a cold or a bad flu and you're homeless, you'd rather sleep in a bed and get well than sleep wherever, and you'll be sick longer.

  So just the fact that you can go to a house. Recover. Like actually, you know what we take for granted all the time. They were just arguing that from a tax dollar perspective, we're saving money by making sure people have a home. Just on the medical side, I can only imagine the additional benefits in regards to the legal and criminal side of a community.

  Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing that I've heard from the homeless population too is the apartment, when they're placed in an apartment, it's actually a safe place to leave their stuff. And people don't even think about that. Sometimes my clients get caught up in, incidents that end up in the criminal justice system because, they're sleeping outside and somebody walked by while they were sleeping and took all of their stuff.

  And then they have to, they either lost a court date that they had and so they don't show up or they have to start all over in terms of getting housing. 'cause you have to have certain documents in order to get housing. Yeah. Or they, don't show up for their

  court dates because if they show up for their court dates, they have to leave all of their belongings, their entire lives outside of the courthouse unattended.

  And people regularly steal all of their stuff so then they don't show up for their court and then a bench warrant issues and then they get, arrested. But it's a really terrible cycle that's hard to break.

  Yeah. One of my biggest pet peeves is how hard we make it for disadvantaged people to exist in the systems that we've made.

  I had a personal experience where I was unemployed for a while, I filed for unemployment, which I had never done before. I had no idea what I was doing and. Like I, I sat there so frustrated with like how to apply and how to use phone and like how to pick the right button. And I'm like, okay, I have a master's degree like this.

  Yeah. If I can't figure out how to apply for. For unemployment and to fill the paperwork out correctly so that I was getting, whatever the check is showing up on time. Like what? And the fact that I'm stubborn and know that this isn't right. And so I'm gonna fight through it because I'm determined.

  I'm this I had to do all of this just to, to get to the right place. What is somebody doing who is less confident, doesn't know, thinks they might be doing it wrong, is already intimidated by the system as it is, right? What? Who, who made this? Who is the person that designed this?

  'cause we need to have a conversation. This is ridiculous.

  And I totally hear you because I am terrible at that kind of stuff. I know Lauren and I both are, and I agree with you 100%. That, it's, you're exactly right. How do we expect these people who are dealing with all sorts of other issues that we don't even think about to navigate this stuff when we can't even, fairly figure it out ourselves.

  One thing that, that they've been doing in Boulder the municipal court here who deals with a lot of the sort of what I call homeless crimes they actually created a position called the Homeless Navigator. So it's a person that will help. Our clients get the documents they need get to where they need to go and actually fill out the paperwork.

  In certain instances, they'll actually keep all of that documentation so that, our clients don't have to worry about it getting stolen or misplacing it when they're out on the streets until we can get them housing. Yeah. The courts will keep

  the original birth certificate, social security cards, things like that, and then give copies to the person so that they can use it, but they don't have to run the risk of losing the originals.

  Yeah, just. Just, I get stressed out, just having to go through like traveling, carrying all my stuff all the time. Yeah. And I was just in, I was just in Europe for powerful lady stuff, which was awesome. And I kept trying to plan my days 'cause I was jumping from like friend's house to a hotel, to this and that so that I could drop all my stuff off so I could like, be free and have a normal day.

  And yeah, that was me on, a work trip slash vacation. This wasn't, yeah, this wasn't survival. This wasn't, this wasn't any of those extreme circumstances. I was never threatened or hungry. So it's just a, we don't take into consideration like things that are just a pain in the ass. For like when we have to do it partially, let alone.

  Worry about it every day. Every day.

  Absolutely. And I think that's part of the problem and that maybe we would be making a little bit more progress in getting to these people and helping them out before they end up in the criminal justice system. But there's a lot of people, who just aren't involved in the criminal justice system, who just don't they don't even think about that stuff.

  Yeah. It doesn't even occur to them. That. And then when you talk to people about it and you say hey, do you ever think about this? Or What about that? They're like, my God, I never thought about that. That must be really hard. And so I think awareness is something that could be helpful too, is just making people, think about some of these things in the first place.

  Because, a lot of us just go through our, daily motions and do what we're gonna do that day and don't even think about, people who have to. Think about where they're putting their stuff or, that kind of thing.

  Yeah. Just to, run a simple errand or complete something that you need to do.

  Go apply for an apartment, go show up to court, and you have to leave every single belonging that you own, that you live off of outside unattended. That's something that not all of us need to deal with or think about on a daily basis. Yep.

  I went, I actually think I brought Jordan with me.

  There was an experience that a local church was doing to get related to refugees and they did this. Really cool exercise. 'cause it was so fast and you got it so quickly of just a glimpse of what it feels like to be a refugee. And they went through, okay. Like you can only take, what are the three things in your house that you would make sure you had, if you had to leave your house right now?

  Who are the three people that you can't live without? Who are like who are you? What are your qualifications? And they had you write these three items on three pieces, little small pieces of paper, and then flip 'em over, mix 'em up, and then somebody walked around to your table and they would randomly take ones away.

  Huh. So in your mind, you're already at these are the three identities I have. These are the three people I have to have in my life. These are the three things that I must have. And yeah, you paired them down. Yes. And some random person that you didn't know would just take 'em. And they would take some people they would take more away from others and you would see it, 'cause you'd be sitting at these tables of six.

  And instantly you're going like, that's not fair. Like they took five from me and only one from them. And then at the end of the this exercise, you flip 'em over and you see what you're left with. And so some people are like, all I'm left with, it was at a church event. So some people are like, all I'm left with is my Bible.

  They're like, I have no money. I have my kids are gone, my husband's gone. I used to be a doctor that's gone. And you're like, shit. Other people, they, it being, like all I have is I'm a doctor. I don't have my family anymore. I don't have any food. I don't have any of this stuff. And it was the simplest exercise to see how quickly you can lose everything and how even when you think you've paired down, it's not. And it's interesting 'cause I see a parallel. We when at, in the event in Germany, we were talking to people about like frustrations they have about their business. And quite a few people raised their hand and they were like, how do I trust people to be on my team when it's a project I really care about and I'm passionate and not everyone does things the way that I do?

  Like how do I get them to get it and how do I make sure they're doing it fast enough? And I think it's a good analogy because so often in our work life we get frustrated with people because they don't do it as fast as we are. They don't get it. There's a rub in like just the daily operations of what we do, but we don't give and we don't give people credit that we're different and that we have these different backgrounds and experiences.

  So if you really extrapolate that out into the differences of perspective of I have a job. I don't, I have a house, I don't. We can't assume that how any of us do things is how anyone else would. Like problem solve or process or think and so often it's I can do this, why can't you?

  And it's no.

  Yeah.

  There's this really interesting dynamic of remembering how we're each special, but that we're also the same and like finding that balance and when it's okay to use those different applications. Yeah.

  Yeah. And when it comes down to it, isn't that what makes us so interesting as a society and makes us interested in meeting new people and hearing their differences, their stories, their different backgrounds and experiences like that was, that's what makes it beautiful.

  But when it comes down to, oh, I want you to do things exactly the way I do them, it shifts the perspective and. Your experience with it, with dealing with other people's differences. So

  yeah, on the smallest scale, like when you look at a family, and nobody can load the dishwasher the same way, so and somebody gets angry about it. Yeah. On the top,

  silverware should be facing up. Yeah. Yeah.

  So I can imagine that starting your own law firm isn't something that you can just do with the snap of your fingers. So what pushed you guys to start your own firm and what has that process been like?

  So for me I always wanted to be in control of, my own clients, my own cases, my own decisions.

  But I needed a certain amount of experience before I felt comfortable going off on my own. I had a pretty varied career. I started off as a DA and then I went into private practice. I joined a solo practitioner up in the Vail area. I did a mix of, civil and criminal stuff.

  Learned a lot at bay. Moved down to Denver. Ashley and I actually both worked at a pretty big law firm in Denver. Got a lot of experience there. Learned all the different jurisdictions and different courthouses in Denver. And, after doing this for a couple of years, for many years, I just finally got to the point where I felt comfortable and experienced enough to the point where I know I can do this on my own and be a damn good attorney and represent my clients in a really great and effective way on my own.

  I'm finally ready. So now let's. Figure out how to make that happen and put all the other pieces together. And so I also know that I am not very good at, doing this on my own and working by myself. And I worked much better in a team environment. So when Ashley came over and started working at the firm that I was at in Denver, we got started talking about, do we have the same goals and future career in mind? And we did. And she and I have been really good friends for a really long time. We were like best friends in law school and it was just the perfect fit, the perfect timing, the perfect, duo. And it's really been great.

  It's been a great experience, working together and being off on our own. But it's not easy. It's not, it's worth it. It's worth it, but it's not easy. And

  when I was in law school, there were a couple of, people that we knew in law school that were starting their own law firms, after they graduated. And I just remember thinking to myself, oh my God, that sounds so difficult. It's scary and so scary because I don't have the experience and I don't know how you even go about starting a law firm. And, so quite frankly, actually, if you had asked me maybe two or three years ago, if I ever would be starting my own law firm, I probably would've laughed.

  But, in the end, as Lauren said it, it just was the right timing and the right fit. And we're there's stuff that always comes up that you don't think about when you're working for a big firm or for the state, or for the county. Yeah. And most of the struggles that

  we've had.

  Because we're very confident in our abilities as attorneys. So that was never one of our concerns and all the struggles that we've really had to, deal with and learn and overcome since we started this firm have been mostly on the business side. Like how do you open up a new business?

  Like how do you file an LLC? What kind of taxes do we need to pay? Things like that. And then, the IT stuff, like we used to have an IT on, a IT person on staff, and now we are having to do all of the jobs that all of the other, staff members and other employees of the bigger firm used to help us with.

  So it's just a little shift in, how we practice, but it doesn't change our how we are as attorneys.

  I'm excited 'cause I just realized listening to that, that there's potential clients that I aren't helping. 'cause I've never thought about offering lawyers how to start their business before,

  excellent. We just think about that. I could, we could actually send some people

  your way. Yeah. Perfect. Exactly. Perfect. We were talking before about like just making things easier for people and that's how my business started. I know how to do that. It's actually really easy to me.

  So let me do, you do your thing and I'll just help you get there. And I love it because it's just getting to, yeah. Start new businesses all the time and see people win, which is my favorite thing in the whole world. Huh? We needed one of you. Where

  were you

  back in April when? There you go. Lawyers.

  That's your new business model. Yeah. It's actually interesting though because one of the things that we've noticed in setting up our business is because, we've talked to different marketing companies and different website hosts and stuff like that. And one of the thing that things that we've discovered is that being a lawyer and running a law firm is actually very different than a lot of other businesses and professions. And some marketing and web hosting and, things like that, that would work great for, a different kind of business don't actually work as well for law firms. And so we've really had to find. People to help us that specialize in law firms and lawyers.

  Yeah.

  And specifically not just in law firms and lawyers, but also specifically for criminal defense lawyers because we've, had, we've invested in some programs and some management software and stuff for specifically lawyers. But then after a couple of months of using it, we realized this isn't actually helpful for us and what we need at all because it's geared towards civil law.

  And it's totally a different type of practice and different, types of settings and reminders and things like that than the practice criminal law. So that's been a learning process and figuring out what software and what programs are appropriate and right for our needs.

  Yep. No it's, I don't think people realize how unique each business really is. 'cause it's not even the type of business, it's who's running it, the, yeah. I just did a workshop for the TV and film and streaming business. It was at a festival Web Fest, Bruin in Germany. And we had a workshop I did was going from creative to entrepreneur, which we could, translate the, almost the same workshop going from lawyer to business owner, where, step one is what type of entrepreneur are you? Are you the entrepreneur that's there to see returns and like focusing on the money? Doesn't matter what you're doing, are you the artist? Which. Probably where I'd put the person who's a lawyer of you don't care about the money or the deadline 'cause you care about doing it.

  Yeah. Yep. That is accurate. And then who's the manager? Who's the person that cares about the business functioning and it working and it can, it having longevity and thriving. And so once you know which one you are, like how do you find the other two people who, the one that cares about the profit and the money and the person who can do all the management operations and thinking beyond the artistry and.

  That room was full of people who are artists, they're filmmakers and screenwriters and directors. And it was like to see the light bulbs go off in that first slide of, yeah, oh, for my business to work, I need an entrepreneur and I need a manager. It was like, that alone was like, was worth going to see that happen because no one runs a business on their own.

  So like it, I love that you guys already knew that you wanted a partnership just for the fun of it, not just for the functionality. Yeah, but there's so much, there's so many steps and so many people make a business that succeeds and they actually hate it because they're not doing their strengths.

  They're not doing the things they like doing. And they're not working with

  people who they enjoy being around. Yes. Think about how much time you spend out of your life in work. Or in your work setting. And with the people who you work with. You need to be working with one of your best friends.

  So it's,

  almost sometimes that doesn't work. Fortunately it's worked for us, but that's true.

  You're already best friends who know the value of contract law, so I think that's probably one step

  up.

  We also too have similar styles and how we approach cases and we knew that kind of going in because we did work at a bigger firm together. So yeah

  we, before we started our own business, we have tried a couple of cases together, been in trials together, met with.

  Different clients together, worked on different cases together, so we already had an idea of how we actually worked together.

  As well as just having fun together. But I would definitely say Lauren's more of the like, finance business person and I'm more of the like networking. Face of the operation.

  Yeah, no, for sure. I'm like, yeah. I'm like, yes, I will go to court. Just do that.

  So obviously you guys are more than lawyers, so how would you describe what you're doing and what you care about when you're not at work as a lawyer?

  I have an 11-year-old son and actually I was a, I recently got married this year, but before that I was a single parent and I was actually a single parent when I was going through law school.

  Congratulations. Yeah. It brought certain, and he was, what, like two or three at the time. He was very young. And so that brought, its own set of challenges. But in, in my free time, mostly, I'm trying to make sure that I can go do stuff for him, which is actually part of the reason that I left the public Defender's office.

  I actually really loved that job, but I was just so overloaded with cases that the work life balance wasn't there. And in starting my own firm it's been really nice to be my own boss because I can just call up Lauren and be like, hey Liam's got this school thing that I really wanna go to, can we make that happen?

  And most of the time we can. Yeah. That's been really great.

  But

  before

  we move on I just wanna take a pause 'cause I think we stepped over something that's pretty important. So you moved from LA to Denver. With the two year olds to change your career and go to law school. So yes, most people would just think about that and start sweating.

  So what what made you think this is it, like this makes sense, were you from Colorado? Did you have help there? Did you Yeah. What, how did this all make sense in the moment?

  And you really hit on a lot of it actually just now. I was living in California, like I said, as a single parent, part of my decision to go to law school was because I realized, once I had my son that working in the entertainment field as a single parent just wasn't going to work because, you had to work in the middle of the night and you had to work on weekends and holidays, and you can't get a babysitter, in the middle of the night.

  That was initially why I, one of the factors that went into me deciding to go to law school. But in addition to that I actually was born in Colorado. I have a lot of family out here. And I always knew that I wanted to come back to the Denver area and live here for a while.

  Just 'cause I like the area. It's Colorado is California and Colorado are probably the two places that I would live. They're both, really amazing states and so I always knew I wanted to live here for a while. And I got into the University of Colorado Law School.

  I got into a bunch in California too. But I decided that having so much family out here and having that support when I was going through law school was necessary. And I was actually very lucky. Because, my, my mom was out here. I have cousins, aunts and uncles. I never had to worry about, what am I gonna do with my son if I have to, be in the library late at night studying.

  Yeah. Your parents, your mom specifically is supportive, so I don't know how you would be able to that really factored into my decision and initially my plan was actually to go back to California. And get a job there after I graduated from law school. But I got involved in the public defender system.

  And the public defender system in Colorado is just amazing compared to other states and other counties. They really make sure that everybody gets, proper training and is supported and, they really teach you what you need to do to be a trial lawyer. And so when I realized that I wanted to be a public defender and I was looking at it, the Colorado Public Defender system is one of the best in the country.

  So that's why I ended up staying in Colorado. Awesome. Thank you. And what about you, Lauren? What are you besides a lawyer?

  Col, for anyone who has not been to Colorado, you gotta come out here because Colorado stay here forever. Yeah. Come. But don't stay. Everyone is coming to Colorado. It's getting crowded.

  But Colorado's amazing. I've bounced around in my life too, and I've lived in many different states. I've always been on the search for something and looking for something that I didn't quite know what I was looking for. And I think I found it in Colorado. So I've actually been out here for about 10 years now.

  And it's just a great state. It's got a little bit of everything if you like, doing all the outdoor stuff, which, granted I'm not an expert outdoorsman at all, but I do like to get out there and hike and ski and go camping and. Concerts, and I love to travel. So that's actually another amazing benefit of now being my own boss and having my own control of my own schedule is Ashton and I can work together.

  So if I was just recently in Peru with my sister, I took about a week and a half off and Ashley covered all of our court dockets and our cases while I was gone because, now we're in a position where we can do that for each other and with each other, where we can not just live to work, but we can also enjoy living our lives and doing the things that we like to do. So I feel very blessed and happy that we're, finally in this

  position. Yeah. It's, people talk about work life balance and I think it's a really silly statement because work is just part of all the other things that go into life. Yeah. And I love that you guys have built yourselves a business that you get to do what you're passionate about.

  You have a team that you enjoy, but you also are built it with already from the beginning, which is one of the big things I coach people on of plan it around your life first. Exactly.

  Yeah. And that's the thing. And because I think I talked a little bit too about the reason I left the public defender's office was just, I was working constantly and the caseload was just out of control.

  Which is, unfortunate, but unfortunately that's what public defenders are dealing with all over the country. But even when Lauren and I were working at the big firm, it's, we still didn't have the luxury necessarily of being able to plan. Work with our lives. Because we had a boss.

  And, sometimes our boss would be like you have to go do this. And

  our boss was, did not have his goals and things that he wanted to get accomplished were not aligned with Ashley's mind. And when I talked about how Ashley and I had very similar goals and, plans for our future, one of the things that we talked about before we opened up our own firm was, what do we wanna get out of this?

  Do we want to just work like crazy? Take all of the crazy cases and as many cases as walk through our door and make all the money possible and that's gonna be our focus. Or do we wanna be. In control of our caseload, in control of our schedules, our business, have enough, have the proper balance where we are still enjoying our lives and we're not overloaded with work.

  And we are to the point. 'cause we love what we do, but when you're so overworked, like Ashley was in the public defender system, you stop loving what you do. Yeah. And now we're, we have our goals aligned with each other and we're really happy with, our caseload and our balance and how things are going.

  Fingers crossed that it keeps moving in this positive direction.

  And boundaries are so important for whether you have your own business or you don't, either way. Like really knowing what those boundaries are and making sure that there's time for yourself when you, it's easy to dismiss.

  That it's okay to take time for yourself when someone's life isn't on the line. How do you guys make time for your clients and make sure that they're getting what they need as fast as possible and still have your life? Does the flow of the court system help you with that? Or is it, are there choices that you have to make within your business?

  I think a lot of clients would tell you that the criminal justice system moves way slower than they would like. Yes. And unfor unfortunately it does. But I think now that Lauren and I have control over, which cases we take, which cases we don't take and we're able to manage how much we're taking on.

  That's what's helpful. Because, when you're a DA or you're a public defender, you have to take every case that, comes your way where the person qualifies for a public defender. And that's important. It is absolutely important. People need to be doing that work, and I love doing that job, but we don't have enough public defenders.

  Period. And we don't have enough resources to help the public defenders, do what they need to do. So what's really nice having our own firm and being able to is, if somebody comes to us and we say. You know what? We just picked up a big sex assault case. We really just don't have time to pick up this other, robbery case or something like that.

  Whereas when you're a public defender and when you're working under a boss at a bigger firm, you don't necessarily have that luxury. Yeah. We

  don't

  spread

  ourselves too thin. And I also think it's really important because, Ashley and I, we have our business phone numbers are our cell phones.

  So our clients do have kind of 24 7 direct access to us

  with our cell phones and our emails and provided we're not in court or in a meeting or something like that. Yeah. So

  if, you know something major happens, we are always accessible. But I think what we do really a really good job at is managing expectations.

  And really we don't hide the ball. We're very transparent and we're very informative. We're explaining everything that they can expect and the different possibilities. And because, a lot of things aren't guaranteed and we can't tell them exactly what to expect, but we try to lay it out for them as much as possible and as clearly as possible right from the start, so that when the case takes a lot longer than they expect or want and we have a lot of continuances, they don't freak out and 'cause they've expected it because we've told them what was probably going to happen in their case.

  So I think that is very helpful to start all of our cases and our client interactions on that note. Because it's just, it's easier to handle things when you understand what you're right supposed to expect. And a lot of

  lawyers actually aren't very good at that. Yeah. Because, they've either been doing it for so long that they just forget that they're dealing with somebody who's not been in the criminal justice system.

  Or they just are, too busy and so they skip over some stuff. But, one of the things that, speaking to what Lauren was saying is that if you manage your client's expectations, it makes it a lot easier to have that life and not have them freaking out and calling you all the time.

  Yeah.

  Yeah. I, it's, I think it's like any client for any business, right? If you onboard them and explain how you operate and this is how it works and this is the system and this is the steps it's a completely like that time spent, people often think is wasted time 'cause it's not producing a result, but it is gold because it's preventing people freaking out and having questions later.

  Exactly. And I think a lot of lawyers. They're like, oh, I'm the professional. You're hiring me, so just gimme your money and trust me that I'm gonna do everything right for you. And these are really serious points in our clients' lives. A lot of them have never been in the criminal justice system before, so they're freaking out.

  They

  don't know what to expect. Some people are looking at prison. Yeah. Some people are looking at potentially life in prison. It's somebody's life Yeah. That you're dealing with, and there I would agree with Lauren. There are lawyers who are just like, I'm just gonna, do what I'm gonna do on this case, what I think is appropriate, without ever communicating that to their client.

  Yeah. And I think a lot of lawyers get into trouble in that respect, because then the client doesn't know what's going on. They don't know how you got to that result. And they don't understand the path that got you there. And a lot of times with criminal cases, there are some choices to be made, right?

  Yeah. And the choice is not the lawyers, the choice is the client. It's do you want to get into treatment and serve a probationary sentence? Would you rather just serve a straight jail sentence? Do you wanna

  take this case to trial? Do you wanna accept a plea offer? And you have to have that open communication.

  The, and your client has to trust you so you can be the best lawyer and get the best results behind the scenes. But if you don't have that line of communication with your clients, they don't necessarily, they're not necessarily going to trust you. And that's a big a, a big thing that's important in this kind of dynamic.

  Yeah. And most people don't know. How the law works. They don't even know how civics works and like what all the options are. Yeah, I think it's great that you guys are a guide through that for your clients, that they're as informed as they can be and just having that sense of just knowing, it's amazing how if you just know what the options are, you calm down.

  Like it's the

  absolutely

  what you dunno that, freaks you out.

  Yeah, exactly. And think about it, when we're in court, right? The judges and the clerks, they call us counsel. We're counsel. And if you think about it that way, that is part of our job as a lawyer to make sure that the client understands what's going on, that the client understands all of the different options that they have.

  And I think unfortunately, and not there are other. Really awesome attorneys in the Denver Metro. There are a lot of really awesome attorneys all over the country, but I think there are also a handful of attorneys that either forget that the client doesn't understand, the criminal justice system the way they do, or think that they know better.

  And it ends up being really scary for the client. And so when Lauren and I started our own law firm, that was one of the things that we talked about before we started our business was, we really want to be client centered and make sure that, they're getting all the options, that they're making intelligent choices, and we can guide them, but ultimately they're gonna trust you more and you're gonna get a better result if they're involved in that process.

  Yeah, totally. We ask everyone on the podcast where they put themselves on the Powerful Lady Scale. This is a scale zero to 10, zero being average everyday human, 10 being super powerful lady. Where do you guys feel, on average, where do you feel today and what is the phrase powerful lady mean to you?

  So this is an interesting question because I think that this actually just happened to me the other day.

  If you just asked me like everyday conversation, I'd probably put myself at like maybe a five. But then when I start to look back at sort of some of the things I've done throughout the course of my career and some of the positions I've been in and some of the people that I've helped, I would probably put myself at a nine and hopefully.

  Driving for a 10 at this point. I like it. I like that. Yeah.

  Yeah, I think I probably have a similar answer to Ashley. I would normally just think that I'm average and I'm just doing my thing and living my life and this is just where I end my life ended up. But then if I actually sit down and really think about it and, talking to my family and my friends who keep saying, wow, I can't believe that you opened your own firm.

  I can't believe you're,

  in

  trial. And for

  me, the really big thing is thinking that I've done murder trials. Yeah. When you act. And I've actually had good results,

  and that's just our lives. That's just. Another day in Ashley and my life. But then when you actually step back and really think about it and realize that not everybody's lives are defending murderers in trial or sex assault clients or

  helping your client get out an apartment or helping your client get into treatment. And I've had clients actually come back to me after I, a year or two after I've represented them, and a client that I maybe didn't, doesn't even necessarily stand out that much in my mind, but that will come back to me and say, oh my God, you totally changed my life. Yeah. If it weren't for you, I would be in prison. I would be dead. And that's, so when I think about that stuff, it makes me go, oh yeah, I am a powerful lady. Yeah, because

  we do have a pretty powerful impact on a lot of people, and I don't think we always realize it until we step back and analyze and have someone like you asking us this question.

  Yeah, I think that I would put myself at the top of that scale as well. And I think it takes a conversation like this for me to actually realize what I'm, how, what I'm doing, and how significant it is.

  And it made me, it dawned on me that I haven't even asked what you know as powerful female lawyers.

  Are you, are most of your clients male? Are they female? Is it whoever shows up that you wanna take on? And

  so in general, statistically there are more males than females in the criminal justice system. Unfortunately that's just the way that it is. But it's really interesting because Lauren and I went into, starting our own firm with that thought.

  Like here we are two female attorneys starting their own firm, which, traditionally lawyers have mostly been men. It's been tough for women. It's now we're starting to see that shift a lot. And now it's, I think about half and a half males and females. But it's still difficult sometimes, and I've definitely had clients when I was a public defender that wanted a male attorney, and so when Lauren and I went into this, we thought to ourselves, there's probably actually a population of people out there that need our help, that actually would feel more comfortable with a female attorney. And we've been getting really positive feedback from our clients.

  We've actually had people come up to us in court and say, we think it's really cool that you're two females with your own law firm. Yeah. So it's cool. I think the res, yeah. It is something that we thought about going into this, and I think the response has been really positive.

  Yeah. And I think it's, it's the same as in everyday life. Like you're gonna have some people who. Just don't feel comfortable having a female be an important and powerful figure in their lives. Like they feel more comfortable in having men as the power, powerful figures in the world and society.

  And that in the legal world as well. And some of our clients and some of our colleagues. But in general, I think a lot of our clients, both male and female, really like having a female attorney. Because, Ashley and I, we're not soft like very soft personalities, but we do have that side to us.

  So you get both sides and you, I think it's very powerful having a female attorney. Who's strong and smart in the courtroom arguing a case for, for your case in trial and yeah. I think a lot of our clients appreciate that.

  Yeah. And I can just imagine as well that depending on the type of case that you're defending, just the optics and the support of having a female defender, when you wouldn't think that a woman would want to defend the actions that you're being accused of.

  To bring that level of fairness, right?

  Yes. And there have actually, both at the public Defender's office and at the bigger firm that Lauren and I worked for, sometimes there were strategic decisions that were made and I actually ended up doing a lot of the sex assault.

  Yep. Because everybody was like, you know what, it's gonna be a lot better if youngish blonde, little. Attorney is the one cross-examining this victim instead of this big imposing six foot four. Yeah. Male. Or if you know

  you have a child's victim who's very emotional and crying and sympathetic on the stand, do you want a big, powerful man?

  What could see, what could be seen as taunting this young victim? Or is it a better approach and better optics to have a softer, more gentle approach with a female questioning that particular victim. There's a lot of things that kind of go into the decisions about who should try the case and when you have those options available to you.

  Ashley was talking about.

  I think what you guys are doing and how you're approaching your business and justice and your whole lives is just fascinating. I could talk to both of you for hours and I would've loved to have you guys back for our 2020 season. 'cause I'm sure that there are so many more things that we could really get in depth on that you guys are passionate about that, people wanna hear.

  Having conversations about like things of substance, things that matter, and things that allow people to take, big, bold actions in their own life. But this has just been such an incredible conversation. So thank you so much for being a yes to powerful ladies and being yes to your own powerful lives.

  Thank you so much. Thank you for having us. We would absolutely love to come back. This has been fun. Yeah,

  guys, what a powerful conversation. How awesome are Lauren and Ashley? I am totally lit up about being reci about going to law school, and I hope it's inspiring to some of you as well. Maybe more importantly, I am left just so hopeful and optimistic and just generally happy that there are women and people like them in the justice system in our country who are out there doing the right thing.

  They're not just offending people, but working to change people's lives and put them back on a path that will allow them to not only be solid contributions to society, but also to thrive. We need more people like them and we need to be highlighting more people like them. So if you know someone who fits that description, email us hello@thepowerfulladies.com so we can get them on the show next to Connect, support and follow Lauren and Ashley, you can visit their website butler to lean.com and follow them on Facebook at Butler to lean.

  All of that plus more. Everything we talked about are in the show notes@thepowerfulladies.com. If you'd like to support the work that we're doing here at Powerful Ladies, there's a couple of ways you can do that. Subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, or anywhere you listen to podcasts.

  Leave a review on any of these platforms. Share the show with all the powerful ladies and gentlemen in your life. Join our Patreon account. Check out the website, the powerful ladies.com to hear more inspiring stories. Get practical tools to be your most powerful to 50% off your first order in the Powerful ladies.

  Or donate to the Powerful Ladies one Day of Giving campaign, and of course, follow us on Instagram at Powerful Ladies for show notes and to get the links to the books, podcasts, and people we talk about. Go to the powerful ladies.com. I'd like to thank our producer, composer, and audio engineer Jordan Duffy.

  She's one of the first female audio engineers in the podcasting world, if not the first. And she also happens to be the best. We're very lucky to have her. She's a powerful lady in her own right, in addition to taking over the podcasting world. She's a singer songwriter working on her next album, and she's one of my sisters.

  So it's amazing to be creating this with her, and I'm so thankful that she finds time in her crazy busy schedule to make this happen. It's a testament to her belief in what we're creating through Powerful Ladies, and I'm honored that she shares my vision. Thank you all so much for listening. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

  I can't wait for you to hear it. Until then, I hope you're taking on being powerful in your life. Go be awesome and up to something you love.

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