Episode 90: How Can We Be More Like Ruth Bader Ginsburg?

Upon the passing of the great Ruth Bader Ginsburg I spent a lot of time reflecting on what it means to take Powerful Ladies to the next level - to be supporting women to fill the shoes of amazing and influential such as RBG as well as being the new trailblazers to make the world a better place.  I kept asking “How can we be more like RBG?” so I figured, let’s ask that question on the podcast. Who better to have this discussion with than our favorite female lawyer team, Lauren Butler and Ashley Telleen of Butler Telleen. On this episode we’ll discuss ways we can each be more like Ruth, how Covid is affecting the legal system, how lack of understanding the system is adding to our country’s divide and how we can all join together to make the change we wish to see in the world. 

“It’s amazing how far we come thanks to trailblazers like Ruth Bader Ginsburg that give us the opportunities we have today.”

— Lauren Butler

• Show Notes

  Ruth Bader Ginsburg

  Right to a Speedy Trial

  Right to Reasonable and Fair Bond

  Breonna Taylor

  Kentucky

  Grand Jury Process

  Vox Media

  Montana

  George Floyd

• Transcript

  Follow along using the Transcript

   It's remarkable how drastically far we've come from where she started, and it's important to kind of reflect and, you know, recognize those steps and those hardships that these trailblazers like Justice Ginsburg went through to give us the opportunities

  that we have today. That's Lauren Butler and Ashley Lene and this is The Powerful Ladies Podcast.

  Hey guys, I'm your host, Kara Duffy, and this is The Powerful Ladies Podcast where I invite my favorite humans, the awesome, the up to something, and the extraordinary to come and share their story. I hope that you'll be left, entertained, inspired, and moved to take action towards living your most powerful life.

  Upon the passing of the great Ruth Bader Ginsburg, I spent a lot of time reflecting on what it means to take powerful ladies to the next level, to be supporting women to fill the shoes of amazing and influential people such as RBG, as well as being the trailblazers to make the world a better place. I kept asking, how can we be more like RBG?

  So I figured, let's take that question on the podcast. Who better to have this discussion with than our favorite female lawyer team, Lauren Butler and Ashley Lene of Butler Toline. On this episode, we'll discuss ways we can each be more like Ruth, how COVID is affecting the legal system, how lack of understanding the systems in our country is adding to our country's divide, and how we can all join together to make the change we wish to see in the world.

  All that and so much more coming up. But first, if you're interested in discovering what possibilities and businesses are available for you to create and to live your most fulfilling life, please visit the powerful ladies.com/coaching and sign up for a free coaching consultation with me. There is no reason to wait another day to not be living your best life when you instead could be running at full speed towards your wildest dreams today.

  Well guys, I am so excited to have you back and when. I mean, this year's just been insane. Like it's been totally crazy. Oh, yeah. And every time that I think like, oh, we've probably capped out on our craziness, uh, nope. It just keeps going. So after the unfortunate passing of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, I was like, we have to do a conversation about how to be more like her because she made so many things change and improve for the lives of so many different types of people.

  And I sat here, I'm like, who do I wanna have that conversation with? And I was like, oh, I know, I know. I wanna bring him back. So here we are today with Lauren and Ashley from Butler and to lean and I am just so excited to hear what's been going on with you guys, how you guys have been handling 2020, and just to dive into really that conversation of the impact that Ruth Bader Ginsburg made and how can all of us in the powerful ladies space, like step into being more like her.

  Well, thank you so much for having us back. We are definitely happy to be talking to you and your listeners again. Um, we enjoyed it last time and we can't wait to catch up with you. Um, so what has been going on with you guys? Well, I mean, 2020, this whole COVID-19 thing, it just like everybody else, it's affected.

  Our lives as well. I think we have been personally trying to make the most of it as much as we can, but of course, just like everyone else, it's, you know, affected our business. Um. You know, court courthouses have shut down completely for a long time. Um, so we weren't really having any jury trials or any in court hearings or anything, and we weren't getting new clients because their court dates weren't, weren't scheduled until, you know, the end of this year, the beginning of next year.

  And I mean, it's just this whole thing has had a snowball effect on everybody's lives in every aspect. Um, well, and you know, I'll say too, at the same time, uh, we sort of have the flip side of that too, in that we do represent people who are in custody. Mm-hmm. And so it's been, um. A challenge to sort of figure out how do we protect the health, uh, and safety of everybody, but still protect our client's constitutional rights, particularly if, you know, they're being held in jail.

  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it's, it's sort of a different, it's a different thing for the people who are out of custody and able to, you know, sort of go about their lives. But for people who are in custody, you know, you wanna find that balance between keeping people safe and protecting their rights as well.

  So that's definitely been, I would say, one of our biggest challenges as well. Yeah. And yeah, on, on the topic of protecting our clients' constitutional rights, um, what a lot of people don't even realize is how this has impacted a lot of very. You know, what was standard and staple and accepted rights that nobody ever questioned.

  So for instance, you know, whether or not you, you're in or out of custody, um, for instance, the right to a speedy trial. Mm-hmm. Um, before you know it, in Colorado, you have to be brought to trial within six months. Otherwise you get the case dismissed With prejudice. Now because of all of these continuances and courthouses shutting down, these, our clients' speedy rights trials have been violated because their cases and their trial dates have been continued and extended far beyond that six months.

  And, you know, no matter how many objections or constitutional violations we allege and argue, you know, we're an unprecedented time. So these are all new kind of issues that we've never dealt with before. Mm-hmm.

  And are like when people, let's put that into real life perspective. So what's an example that you guys have seen of what would be considered relatively minor and now people are just like still in custody and it's like crazy.

  Yeah. Well, so you know,

  another constitutional right, the right to, uh, reasonable and fair bond. Um, so what was maybe thought of as a reasonable and fair bond amount before, um, knowing that if you can't pay that bond amount, you are only gonna be stuck in custody in jail for at the maximum six months before your day in trial.

  Right. Um, but now, and regardless of. How serious or minor the charge is you still get, are entitled to a bond amount. Right? And so we have a lot of clients who are indigent, um, who, you know, work kind of the private attorneys that take over the public defender cases when the PDs office have a conflict. So we have a lot of clients who can't afford their bond amount, no matter how high or low it might be.

  Um, and so now that our clients who before weren't able to post bond, um, their trial dates are being extended past the six months. So now they don't have that like, oh, it's only six months if that you have to spend in custody if you can't afford your bond. Now it's being, their trial days are being continued.

  It was at one point indefinitely, and yet their bond amounts aren't changing. So. They're being stuck in jail without being able to afford their bond. And their bond amount isn't changing and yet their trial date is extended or continued or non-existent at this point. So things like that, you know, it's been, it's been a struggle.

  It's, it's heartbreaking too. 'cause there's, so, there's been so many discussions, right, about like, what is, like our bond amounts, good or bad in general, and why do we have them and why are they so high for certain things? Plus having like being in custody, there's so many elements that keep coming up, you know, even with the Breonna Taylor case.

  Mm-hmm. People are losing their minds and rightfully so about the injustices that are happening. And I had to take a few people and step back and be like, if there wasn't a crime committed, like. There's moral issues and there's the legal issues and Right. I don't know Kentucky law, but based on what the fact that nothing's happened, it's like if there wasn't a law to break, what can we do about it?

  Right, right. The other thing I think that people aren't talking about is normally, from my understanding, the civil case happens after the criminal case.

  That is, yeah.

  And so usually if, if you can't get justice in the criminal case, you can get it in the civil case. And so because it's been reversed and there, there was the, um, what, $12 million agreement with the city.

  Yeah. I think we've also confused people with like the process of how this would happen.

  Yeah.

  So anything that you guys can speak to about that? I know you're not lawyers in Kentucky, but can you ex break any of that down, or do you wanna avoid that like the plague?

  I. I, I guess the thing that struck me the most, um, is how much people don't understand the grand jury process, quite frankly.

  Mm-hmm. Um, and it's a very bizarre process. Um, you know, we have a saying, lawyers have a saying that the grand jury will indict a ham sandwich. Um, but there, what I've noticed in particular, you know, sort of following social media with that case in particular and sort of what went down in Kentucky, um, is just, you know, people are spouting all this stuff and I'm like, you don't really understand the grand jury process, right?

  Mm-hmm. So the grand jury process is secret, um, and defense attorneys are not allowed to be part of that process at all. So normally, um, you know, we would have the right to, uh, confront and cross examine any witness that the prosecution is presenting. Um, but because this is not a criminal trial, it's just an indictment.

  It's them saying, you know, do we have enough evidence to go forward? Mm-hmm. Witnesses are not, not entitled to have a defense attorney. So, you know, if they're calling somebody who potentially could get charged based on their testimony, that person is outta luck. You know, unless they have some sort of agreement with the prosecutor ahead of time.

  We also don't know what the prosecutor is saying. And so, and I think we've seen this come out in the Breonna Taylor case in particular too, where, you know, we now know that they didn't ask for murder charges. Right. And, um, I'm actually quite frankly surprised that they sort of let that out because, you know, even when I get a case from.

  That's the result of a grand jury indictment. I have to fight to get that transcript. Like that's not just handed to us. Right. So the fact of the matter is, you know, that prosecutor could be in there presenting as much or as little evidence as they want to, and we will never know that unless they end up releasing the transcript, which normally they don't.

  Um, you know, and so you have all these people saying, well, it went to the grand jury and they didn't do charges. Well, yes, but that's not entirely accurate, I guess is what I'm trying to say. So, um, to me, I think that's been one of the biggest things with that case in particular, is just that there's not a lot of transparency in the grand jury process.

  And a lot of people don't understand how that process works. So the fact that they, they didn't return charges. Maybe it's 'cause they didn't have the evidence, or maybe it's because they chose not to present the evidence.

  Yeah. Well I think you bring up a great point, which I keep hearing as the reoccurring theme for this whole year, is that people are getting very polarized about topics that we, they who are getting polarized don't really know how it works.

  Whether it is the electoral college. Yep. Um, you know, the voting maps in and how they're made, um, you know, there's the Breonna Taylor case. Everything that people are getting very divided on. No one really knows how we got to the place that we are at, right? Uh, so I'm thankful for, you know, things like Vox that are making these little, like, did, you know, like, like mini documentaries?

  Um, but, and other people who are doing that. But there's so much information that people just don't know. Like they, they, we don't know how people like really get elected. We don't know how you have or don't have voting rights. Like people got surprised that in certain states, if you've been convicted of a felony, you don't have rights to vote, right?

  Mm-hmm. And that confused people. And so like, there's just this bigger breakdown of people knowing how America works. Yeah. Like how, how do we fix that?

  Does everyone go

  to law?

  I wish I did. Everyone can just take a beat and take a step and. Not react so emotionally based on, you know, this side or the group, or the mm-hmm. The class that they identify with blindly, you know, reacting blindly and instead listening to the other side. You know, if someone says something that you disagree with, keep your ears open and listen and be rational.

  Um, and do the research. Don't just find these, you know, big opinion pieces that support your side because that's just gonna inflame your emotions without, without giving that person the knowledge and the understanding to back up their, their positions and their opinions. And I think that's been a big problem.

  With our society, like you said, Kara, you know, we are so polarized and yet, and we're so passionate and emotional about these mm-hmm. These topics, but at the same time, most people don't really know the information and what's, what's causing these situations. So, um, I think a big part of that is people just need to be a little more open-minded and, you know, open to the, to learning more about it.

  Listen. Yeah. That's, you know, that's basically what it's, you know, if somebody, like, if somebody is listening to this podcast, you know, listen to us telling you what this is, what the grand jury process is without, you know, try to listen to like, just, this is what the process is without Yeah. Making a judgment about it, I guess.

  Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah.

  Well, with the theme of this, this podcast session being all about how to be more like Ruth Waiter Ginsburg, um, what, let's start with, what impact has she had on the two of you?

  Well, quite frankly, we probably wouldn't be lawyers if it weren't for her. Um, I mean, you know, when she went to Harvard, she was, there were only nine women in her class.

  Um, she basically had to fight tooth and nail to get every position that she was in to open every door that she walked through. Um, and you know, I, I don't, I mean, I really don't know if we would even be able to practice law, particularly have our own law firm, you know, if it weren't for somebody, you know, if it weren't for Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

  And I know also, you know, I've talked to a lot of my. Female colleagues, um, sort of in preparation for this too. And a lot of them talked, said the same thing, you know, they

  mm-hmm.

  It also gave, you know, some of them the courage to even apply to law school. Mm-hmm. Um, people who wouldn't have done that in the past.

  Yeah. Um, so, you know, she certainly o opened doors for many, many, many people. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's interesting 'cause she sort of did so quietly at first. Yes. So we see her as this big icon now and all incredibly deserved. But, you know, back at the beginning of her career, she was sort of a quiet storm, you know, she wasn't mm-hmm.

  Really in everybody's face and she was just sort of strategically making the moves and taking the steps and, um, I actually. It was interesting 'cause when we were preparing for this, you know, Lauren and I have obviously read a lot of her opinions and her dissents and a lot of her case law. I actually didn't know a ton about her personal life.

  Um, and so, you know, one of the things that I thought was really cool is I actually saw a lot of myself and you know, her and sort of the way she was approaching cases that I didn't really know until I started doing research about it. So, um, I thought that, what was an example of that? So, um, I'm very, and everybody practices differently and that, you know, there's no one right way to practice, but I am sort of, um, you know, a lot of people talked about how she was pretty quiet and reserved and soft spoken.

  Um, and then she would get up to speak and it would just be everybody would just be captivated by her, right? Nobody was expecting it because. You know, she wasn't the person because, you know, there are certain lawyers, the Bulldog lawyers that are always in your face and, you know, screaming, and she just, she wasn't like that, you know, she had her strategy and she just sort of went forward with her strategy.

  And, um, you know, one of the things that she said, um, that I really agree with is sometimes you catch more flies with honey, right? Mm-hmm. So sometimes it's not in your client's best interest to get in everybody's face and, you know, scream and, you know, sometimes, sometimes it is, but sometimes it's not. And sometimes you're actually gonna get farther.

  By, you know, saying, Hey, like, how can we figure this out? Or how can we make a compromise? Or, you know, I'm still gonna file this brief with all this legal stuff, but that doesn't mean we have to fight about it, you know? Yeah. Approach. Yeah. Um, especially if you're in a situation where, right off the bat, people aren't gonna take you seriously because you're a woman, or because you're small or because you're quiet.

  Mm-hmm. So they're always going to look for that, that excuse for why to support, why they, you shouldn't take that person seriously, or why they don't have anything important or intellectual to say. So, you know, taking that calm and intellectual approach to be taken more seriously.

  That, that's one of the things I respect the most about her is that she decided that she was going to fight these battles and win these battles and do it in with whatever deck of cards she was given.

  Yeah.

  Like she knew that she could, um, use the, the existing laws and, um, system to still have these breakthroughs. Right. And I think that there's so much in that, um, that speaks to me about how we can be handling these things today. Um, you know, especially with the election being just a few weeks away.

  Like there's so much power in just doing that action. Right. Uh, so based on the impact that she's made on you guys and, and what doors she's opened, you know how. How can people be more like her? Like how can, what, what of her should we be embracing and how can we be putting that into practice?

  Yeah. So Lauren and I actually sort of talked about this, um, earlier, got into a pretty big discussion about it.

  There are a couple of things. Yes. Yes. So I think actually one of the easiest, um, things to do, and this is sort of, you know, probably not the deepest answer, but we'll go more into some other ways that we can, you know, be more like her as well. But, um, is particularly in 2020 with all the pandemic stuff and everything going on, lighten up a little bit.

  Like it's just take, it's, oh, you know, we look at the Supreme Court justices and everything that's going on in the world and it's catastrophic and depressing and, you know, everybody's in a really tough space. And, um, you know, the fact of the matter is. She actually had a sense of humor. I mean, everybody says that about her.

  Um, you know, she embraced the notorious RBG moniker. She kept a stack of shirts that she would give her fans that said Notorious RBG on it. You know, I mean, she really like, you know, she, she sort of embraced that. And, um, I know Justice Breyer, um, since her passing was talking about how, you know, if he hit a wall when he was working, he would go into her office and they would sort of joke around for five minutes and then, and she would joke around with him and then, you know, when it was time to go back to work, they would just go back to work, you know?

  Mm-hmm.

  And I actually as simple and as sort of, um, you know, weird as it sounds, I think that we could all maybe use a little bit more. In our lives, even if it's just for a minute or five minutes. Yes. Um, just to take that time to sort of reconnect with ourselves and our friends and, you know, and I think a byproduct of that is if you lighten up, if you don't take everything so seriously, then you will have more acceptance and be more open-minded.

  I mean, one of my favorite things about, uh, justice Ginsburg was her friendship with Justice Scalia. I mean, these two could not have been more opposite on the political spectrum on their interpretation, and yet they were, you know, such close friends. And I think it's a testament to, you can stand by your ideals.

  You can stand up for your, you know, your passions and what you believe in. And you can argue, you know, your, your side and have these intellectual debates. But you don't have to make it personal. Yeah. If you, if you lighten up a little bit like Ashley was, was saying then, then you don't take it so personally and you can have this back and forth exchange and have it be more meaningful instead of just straight, strictly emotional.

  And then you can also, um, appreciate the other person for the benefits and the positive attributes that they do have. And you can find that common ground and you can go to operas together and hang out, you know, in your offices the way that Ginsburg and Scalia did. And I think if we had more people like that with that mindset, it would bring our society closer together instead of more polarized the way that it's becoming now.

  Yeah. They had so much respect for each other, and I, you know, that's in the root of it, right? How do we respect each other, not make each other villains. Right. Exactly. Like there's so much of this v vilification that's happening and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, that's someone's parent or child or brother or sister.

  Like, hold on. Like, and I mean, you know, I think the truth is, is that for the most

  part, it's okay if you have a different opinion than someone else. Yes. Isn't that what makes our society such a beautiful and blended, you know, society with so many different characteristics and, and opinions and backgrounds and experiences, and instead of seeing that automatically as such a terrible thing, you should at least accept it for, and, and embrace it for the positives that it can offer.

  It doesn't mean that you have to agree with everything, but, you know, embrace the, the differences. I love that. Yeah, I was gonna say that. So one of the things that I, you know, had written down was try to try to be more or less partisan. And I think what Lauren said speaks to that, you know, mean she fought tooth and nail in the courtroom and in her briefs.

  Okay. And, you know, everything that she wrote. But, you know, once, once she did that, and once she used her strategy and, um, her skills to do that, you know, she, she wasn't back fighting with Scalia. Mm-hmm. You know, she, they were trying to hear each other and be friends mm-hmm. And hang out. And I, you know, I agree.

  I think we could definitely use a lot more of that in our country right now.

  Yeah. 100%. Yeah. What's number two?

  So, um, one thing that I sort of picked out too is that everybody has a voice. Right. You just have to find it. So, um, you know, a lot of people, I think nowadays think there's one way to get something done.

  Um, you know, that you have to be, um, the strongest or the, the best or, you know, the most skilled or the loudest or the funniest, whatever it is. And, um, the fact of the matter is, you know. As I sort of touched on before, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was actually pretty quiet, pretty unassuming, you know? But that doesn't mean that she doesn't have a powerful voice.

  She just needed to use it in a different way. And so, um, like for example, one of her really great friends was the big protester demonstrator, you know, always out there in the streets, always, uh, you know, with the signs and at the protests. And, you know, she, Ruth Bader Ginsburg just said at one point, you know, that's not me.

  She's like, I believe in this cause, but I'm not the protester. I'm not the demonstrator. She's like, I would much rather like just sort of take a step back and, you know, write this legal brief and, you know, sort of. Help this way, and mm-hmm. She really did help. It was just in a, a different way that not everybody was expecting.

  And so one of the big ones for me, like I said, would be, you know, everybody has a voice. You just gotta find it, and you've gotta go with what your strengths are. Um, so, you know, if you're not that loud voice, that's fine. That doesn't mean that you can't do anything to help. Um, you just gotta find out what your voice is and use that to your advantage and to push your cause forward.

  Yeah, I mean, that's something that we've always, uh, been taught well when we're in law school and all of our mock trials and things like that. Don't be, don't try to be someone that you're not. You know, you can see some of these attorneys who are, um, you know, they put on such a show and they have such a presence when they're in trial and, you know, they're boisterous and, and compelling.

  You can. You can, like the way that they practice, but if that's not you, it's gonna come across as very disingenuous. So, you know, for us, when we're in trial, for me personally, I'm not that big, loud, you know, presence in the courtroom. Um, and if I tried to be, it would be awkward, the jury wouldn't like me, I would not get my appoint across effectively.

  And, you know, that was something that we learned early on in law school. Um, and I think to Ash's point, that's what Justice Ginsburg realized about herself and that's how she, she contributed in her way to make such mm-hmm. All of these big changes. Um, and, you know, while we were, while Ashley and I were talking about this before we connected with you, Kara, um, what I, what I found really interesting is.

  Looking back at all of these big major changes. Like for instance, when, uh, when Ruth Bader Ginsburg was still practicing law and, and making these big changes before she became a Supreme Court justice, um, big changes happened twofold, right? And I think that it happens on a bigger scale with the social change and with the protests and the riots and changing the culture of society.

  But then on the other side, you need both. You need that big movement and that big loud movement. And then you also, on the other side, needs someone who is going to be more detailed and direct and calm and intellectual about making the actual changes, which is what Ginsburg did on the legal side, right?

  So she took this big movement with all these loud voices, and that wasn't her. But what she did was. She used that movement to, to make these small changes on the legislation side, and then that just built upon each other and they both work together to make change.

  You guys are making me think all these thoughts.

  I'm gonna write them down. I don't keep interrupting you. Um, um, well, I, I love all of that because, you know, powerful Ladies is, is fundamentally about empowering people and empowering you leads to being powerful in your own voice, in your own way, as you guys were talking about. And something that comes up quite often in the Women who Come to Powerful Ladies events or in our community is that.

  They know, they want to find their path and purpose. They know they wanna make change, and they're not sure yet, like what that looks like. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that, you know, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was also a great example of like just building in that like you saw the steps happening of like, I don't think that's right.

  To how do we fix this to let me do more research? And I think part of what ties your first point and your second point together is if something doesn't feel right to you, how do you go and learn about it? Mm-hmm. That it, it can almost embolden you to be like, no, I have to fix this now. Right. And which I think is very parallel to both of your paths, whereas something triggered you and you're like, Hmm, I don't think so.

  And then you kept figuring out how do we, like now it's like a being your bonnet and you're like, no, I can't not do something about this anymore because. It's, there's the overwhelm of all the things that need fixing. And then there's also, how can I, what actions can I take to be effective? Mm-hmm.

  Right.

  And I really hear you talking about how there is an opportunity to be effective in your own voice and knowing, having the research behind it is, is also what really matters.

  Yeah. And you know, sort of to that point that you just made too, I mean, one of the things about Ruth Bader Ginsburg in particular as a justice on the Supreme Court is she was not for these very huge sweeping changes.

  Um, everything that she did was very sort of small and, um, incremental. Mm-hmm. And so I think that, you know, a lot of people, and I, I'm guilty of this myself too, you know, I think of where I am and where I wanna be, and that change just seems so massive that I'm like. That it's almost paralyzing. It's like, well, how do you get there?

  I mean, that's such a huge change, right? And I think that's a lesson that she can teach us. And she did it, um, very much if you follow her sort of canon of work on the Supreme Court. You know, it was never like, okay, this one cha case is gonna change everything. It was like, okay, we're gonna take this tiny little step with this case and then this tiny little step with this case, and then this tiny little step with this case.

  And in the end, it actually makes the change stronger once you get there, right? Um, and so for me, sometimes I have to sit back and say, okay, you know what? Maybe I'm not gonna make that big sweeping change in the next month or two months, or whatever it is, but I can take this one step. Um, and then once I achieve that step, then I can take the next step.

  And then, you know, before you know it, you are where you wanna be and you're actually in an even stronger position than if you had tried to take that leap, you know, from where you started. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think when you make too drastic of a change or you know, you react too strongly mm-hmm. Then sometimes you, you create all of these unintended consequences that you don't even think about because you're like, oh, this is such a huge, huge issue.

  We have to make these huge change to correct this big injustice. And then you just go too far and you don't think about all of the, all of the side effects and all of the consequences that it's gonna have, like this ripple effect. So when you take these small incremental steps to make big change, you kind of build upon each other and it's this, these building blocks.

  And I think that was. The, the brilliant legal mind of Justice Ginsburg. That's what she thought. And that's, you know, that just kind of came naturally to her. That's how she thought. And that's why she became the, you know, brilliant lawyer, judge Justice that, um, that she became.

  Well, it, it makes me think of in, um, business strategy, especially in marketing, there's a, a seven layers exercise you can do.

  They also do it in, uh, in therapy where you take wherever the thing is and you say, okay, what would you like to change? Cool. And then what? And you keep saying, and then what, or something similar, right? And you go at least seven layers to see what really is the change you're looking for or what could happen as a result of the change you wanna make.

  And I really wish a lot of people would be doing that exercise right now.

  Yeah.

  Because we know things need to be fixed and so often what's being thrown up is like. As an idea is like the, the most extreme version of it, right? Yeah. And this came up in regards to like, um, people are like down with the police system and I was like, hold on, I don't wanna go on night patrol personally.

  So who is gonna do that? Like, if, if people are saying that we should completely, you know, get rid of that whole structure we have in this country, then I need you to have another plan. I can't just, you can't just say let's destroy it. Like that's not, that's not fair. It's not a complete thought. That was, that was exactly

  the example that I was thinking about when I was just saying, yeah, you know what I, what I was.

  Uh, but you know, I mean, and that was sort of how, uh, justice Ginsburg approached all of her cases. Um, you know, one of the things that Lauren and I were talking about earlier too is she was kind of skeptical of Roe v. Wade. I mean, not that she thinks it should be overturned, but the reason that she was skeptical about it was because she was like, you know, number one, I don't really like having this case that could throw everything into this catastrophic, you know, sort of situation by just this one case being overturned.

  Right? That was part of the reason that. She liked to do things in tiny little steps because, you know, if you have some big issue that's really gonna throw the country into turmoil, you don't wanna just have one case that can be overturned. Like you wanna have, you know, multiple cases that mm-hmm. The justices can be dealing with.

  Um, so, you know, that really kind of was sort of her philosophy and the way she approached, um, being on the bench as a Supreme Court justice as well.

  Yeah. Well, and, and it speaks to the fact that often with these very divisive topics, we've layered on so many other parts of it. We're not just talking about one thing, we're talking about one thing with 10 arms.

  Mm-hmm. And it's really hard to get anyone to agree on all 10 of the things that are added on top of it. Um, it, they're not clean of like. You know, I can't even think of an example of like what would be a very simple thing. Like is this a cat or a dog? Yes or no? Right? Like, that's not what these cases are like, and so, so many it becomes this whole onion that you have to decide if you like it or not.

  Right? And it's like, hold on, can we unpack this? Because if we agree on, on seven out of the 10 things, speaking of cat dog, yeah.

  She must have heard you talking about it. You know, how

  how do we, how do we unpack it so that we can start seeing what we can say yes to? It's honestly something that makes me so frustrated.

  Um, even looking at political bills.

  Yeah.

  Like we are not arguing usually about the thing everyone's talking about in the media. All the arguments are about the 50 million other things that are bundled into it.

  Right.

  Um. So, yeah, I, I, so everyone should be finding their own voice. They should be doing their research.

  They should be, um, you know, separating all the things, doing the seven layer exercise. Um, what else, what else did you guys discover?

  Well, just one more thing to ask Point, um, you know, one of Ruth Bader Ginsburg's first monumental, um, accomplishments that she did was, was that case where she, her, her plaintiff was actually a male, right?

  Um, she was, she had this overall, um, goal of changing gender discrimination and having the Equal Protection Act apply to women and women's rights. But she knew that that was too broad of, of a topic, too strong of opinions. She was going up against. You know, white male, uh, jury or judge panels, and she wasn't gonna be able to win that giant fight.

  Um, so she had to pick one small little aspect that she might be able to convince these, the opposition to agree with, and to see it her way instead of going in guns blazing with this, you know, which was her ultimate goal. She, she was really strategic and she was brilliant because she, not only did she choose a male client to exemplify this, this gender discrimination, which I think was so smart because, you know, the, a, a male judge is going to identify more with, with a male than mm-hmm.

  You know, these, these preconceived notions that they had of, of women at the time. And so that was really smart. But then. She chose this very benign topic of tax law, right? So her client, the whole thing was that he, he was, was denied, um, a tax benefit as a caregiver because caregivers were defined as women and he was an un unmarried man.

  Um, and so he was, he was denied the tax benefit, yet he was still that person who was a caregiver. So it was this very, you know, benign, kind of unemotional area of tax law with a male client. And that's how she kind of, um, use that. That, that legal argument to get people to take the emotion and their, you know, preconceived notions and their opinions outta it and just focus on this one specific issue and then, and then just build on top of that.

  So I think that was brilliant. Well, and then just to add to that, I think, you know, my next point and how to be more like Ruth Bader Ginsburg would be, um, you know, she talked about in several interviews the reason that she chose that particular plaintiff, right? And she. Lauren talked a little bit about it, um, sort of in the context that we were talking about before, but in a completely different context.

  Um, the reason that she said that she chose that particular plaintiff is because she wanted the court to see them as human. Mm-hmm. And I think that is something we can all learn from mm-hmm. In society today. First of all, it's a smart move. I mean, constantly as criminal defense attorneys, that's what we're trying to do all the time.

  Mm-hmm. Um, you know, if we're in trial, we're not calling our client the defendant. Mm-hmm. Um, we're calling them by their name. We're trying to, you know, bring out facts that show the jury that they're a person just like you and me. And I think that just our society in general right now, you know, is so polarized that we aren't seeing each other as human.

  Mm-hmm. Um, that, you know, we're looking at people on the other side and seeing them as monsters and, you know, mm-hmm. Um, our enemy and whatever that is. And I mean, to be fair, you know, there are always gonna be people on one side or the other that probably aren't the best people. But, um, that's not the majority of people.

  And, um, I really think that we should be taking the time like she did to view each other as other human beings, other Americans. We're, we should be taking care of each other and, you know, um, listening to each other and making sure that everybody's okay. Um, and that's, mm-hmm. You know, that was kind of her strategy in those early gender cases was I really want, you know, this really, these really stuffy judges on the bench to see my le you know, what I'm trying to do legally, but I also want them to see my client as a person.

  Mm-hmm. You know, as somebody whose lives life is affected by this.

  And whose life not just, um, is singular. Exactly. It also impacts so many other people. Like it's, um, we, we think that everything, when you think everything's black and white or one side or the other, you also think that things are segmented.

  Mm-hmm. And they never are. Like, it's, it's a joke. If we think that it is, like, how far can you go before you find someone who disagrees with you? Usually it's the person next to you. Right. So it doesn't take very far to, to see someone you equally love and disagree with at the same time. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, when you look at the, the cases that she's had, one of the things that um, has surprised the men in my life is that without her women weren't able to open up a bank account mm-hmm.

  Um, without a husband or a father, like co-signing on it. And that was not long ago. Um, so, you know, when we think about those, again, something that seems so small, like it was such a small case that everyone just assumes that's the way life always was. Mm-hmm. And yet none of us on this call could have our businesses if we couldn't open up a bank account, let alone the other things that, like all, that's all that is wrapped into that.

  Um, you know, is it, to me it's a little bit mind blowing, how, how powerful somebody can be in these quiet, consistent steps and to do so under the radar until recently.

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

  And you know, I think, I think

  any big social change happens over a very long time in history in stages. Right. I think that.

  One big change happens in the beginning. So like, for instance, giving women the right to vote, it was a huge change. And then allowing them to work and, you know, all of these things. And so then society kind of gets complacent and they're like, oh, well look at, look at all of these rights that, that you have now.

  We're totally equal. Um, and, and there there's no more discrimination because now you have the right to vote. You, you know, you, you can work, you can earn a living. You don't have to, um, you know, you have all these rights that you never did before. Mm-hmm. And so society kind of accepts that and, and thinks that we're all equal now.

  And then you start, it takes that next wave to be like, wait a minute. Yes.

  We, we came so far from where we were, but we're not there yet because now look at all of these, all of these laws that still exist, that still mm-hmm. You know, segregate and, and discriminate. Like, you know, not being able to open a bank account without your husband or your father. Um, you know, some of the other cases that she worked on were, you know, how serving as a, as a juror was not mandatory.

  It was voluntary for women. Um, uh, you know, different, different discrimination, uh, statutes and laws that gave women and men different benefits and different social security and things like that. And then you start analyzing all of these, uh, differences and all of these laws that mm-hmm. Still segregate and, um, you know, discriminate between the genders or whatever the group and class of people are, and you start realizing we're not there yet.

  So now, you know, we just, we just kind of got complacent and we're so happy with these big changes that, that were monumental, but there's still more to do. And I think it happens in stages. And I think that's what we saw with Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She was kind of at that, you know, one of the second or third stages in this movement for women's rights, um, where it was kind of this wake up call like, oh, we're just, we're not there yet.

  You know? Yeah.

  Uh, and, and I would imagine that with both of you as defense lawyers and, uh, defense attorneys, and. Do you feel like the rest of the US has caught up to, like the discrimination that you've seen regularly and you're like, Hey, glad you came to the party, or do you feel like, um, do you feel like, like even you've been surprised at things that have shown up in the past couple of months in regards to discrimination?

  I have to think about that for a minute. Um, let's put it this way, I, I don't think that the rest of the country is entirely caught up. Um, I do think that steps have been made, um, to get them more caught up, but, you know, being particularly in the criminal justice system and there's plenty of, of statistics and research that show and that, you know, we've seen in practice that people of color, of course are disproportionately affected, um, by the criminal justice system.

  And, you know, I, I will say I have seen. And, you know, one of the jurisdictions that we practice in is supposed to be supposedly, you know, very liberal, open-minded jurisdiction. And we're still seeing cases where, you know, one co-defendant's black and the others are, you know, white. And that that one co-defendant is at in fact being treated differently by the prosecutors and the judge.

  Mm-hmm. And, you know, it's, so I, I'm happy that, um, you know, some of these issues are starting to come to the forefront. But that being said, I by no means think that the, the country or lay people everyday people are in any way caught up to how bad the problem actually is. Yeah. And I think, you know, with this racial inequality, um, movement that's.

  That's really recently started up in our country. I think, like I was saying before, this is just kind of that next stage, right? Where, you know, African Americans were with, we abolished slavery. That was a huge step. Then everyone kind of got complacent and thought we were there. Then, you know, the civil rights movement and segregation and mm-hmm.

  Um, all of these big monumental steps that we, uh, society was so proud of and thought, you know, we're so monumental. And they were, and, but because of that, now they're like, oh, you have all of these rights and you have all of these, you know, opportunities that you didn't have before. We changed all of these things.

  So we're equal now. And then every wave and every movement after that is just kind of getting over that complacency and that, you know, gratitude of finally being, you know. Being given these, these rights that you didn't have before and then realizing, but wait, I still don't have these rights and the same opportunities as everybody else.

  So we're, so we're not quite there yet. And I think, you know, that, that seems to be the place that we're at in society now where we're kind of reevaluating, Hey, are we actually equal or are, is there still this segregation and discrepancy? And I think, you know, it's important though that you can't, you can't lose sight of all of the accomplishments that we have made.

  You know, you can't diminish all of the, all of the big steps that we have made. Yes. Maybe we're not there yet, but, um, you know, you have to. Appreciate these big moments and these big steps forward that have happened before, and acknowledge them because without those, you wouldn't be at this spot that you're in now, where you can make additional small, incremental changes and take this next wave towards equality.

  When I am working with entrepreneurs and we are launching a business together, I, we look at the first launch being like the biggest mountain you've ever had to climb.

  Mm-hmm.

  And then when you climb that mountain and you've launched your business, you go. Oh shit, that mountain's even bigger now. I have to like run the business.

  And I feel like that parallels with whatever, um, social justice path people are on or the, whether it's environmental or whether it's, uh, equal rights or if it's healthcare. Like it doesn't matter what the topic is. Yeah. To your point, the, the big, the things that look big

  right,

  are big in the moment and then you turn around and realize, oh, there's even more work to do.

  Yeah. Right. I think 'cause there's always more details.

  Yeah. Mm-hmm.

  That's

  such a great example that I hadn't even thought about as apparel. But yeah, I mean, you know, Ashley and I, when we started our law firm, that was the huge, monumental big step. And then once we did that. Then it's all of these little things.

  Okay, now we have to do, figure out our accounting. Now we have to figure out, you know, our calendar system and all of these little things that, you know, we're not, we're not quite there yet. There's still all these improvements and little changes and evaluations that we need to continue to make. And that's, that's a good point.

  Well, and that's why I like the, the recent quote from a OC of like, we're not going back to brunch. Like, I wanna go be able to go back to brunch someday. Like, I enjoyed that and I like it as a statement to remind everybody, like, listen, if you're going to step into how powerful you can be, if you're going to step into really aligning with like what you're here to do and how, how much of an impact you can make, wherever your impact is right in, in business and law, and you name it.

  Like, you have to accept that. Like, we can't go back to like, we can't go back to the brunch. We can't go back to. Not, um, taking the easy path or the, the path of, of least awareness. Mm-hmm. Like, that's not an option, uh, anymore. And that doesn't mean that it has to be no fun. Right. It doesn't mean that it has to be dramatic and painful and emotionally exhausting.

  Like it doesn't have to be. And I know that I'm sure we share that when you're on the rollercoaster of being like we're doing it, it is a rollercoaster. Like there are huge victories. There are like calm moments where you're like, it's all working. We did it. And then all of a sudden you're like, shit, what?

  No.

  So it's like, how do we accept, how do we, um, really value that if we're gonna be committed to changing something or creating something, or being part of something bigger than ourselves, that it is a rollercoaster ride. It is not the lazy river like.

  Yeah,

  as fun as that is, it's not the lazy river.

  Well, you know, also, if you didn't have the lows, the high highs wouldn't be as satisfying.

  Mm-hmm. I mean, you know, if you're just on the Lazy River, you're just kind of like, okay, this is nice. I guess, you know, sometimes it takes those lows to be, you know, to make the highs feel like really, you know, successful and like you've accomplished something.

  Yeah. And I honestly think that's part of what made me start powerful Ladies, is that I just relate to people who are like, all right, let's get on the rollercoaster.

  Yeah. Let's see where this goes. Whereas like, I don't necessarily relate to people who are like, I'm good. Yeah. I'll just say, I'll do the Lazy River. I'm like, what? So being able to find other people who are, you know, as ridiculous as I am in that way, it's emboldening because even if we say yes to the, the Wild Ride.

  It doesn't mean that we don't need support, and it doesn't mean that we, you can't do it by yourself. Like, yeah. Lazy River, you can do it by yourself. Right. Rollercoaster ride. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Also, I mean, because it also

  doesn't mean

  that

  you can't enjoy a lazy river in between Rapid and these up. I mean, the reason why you, you know, make these big pushes to, to make these big achievements is so that you can kind of coast and enjoy it and enjoy your, you know, accomplishments and hard work.

  Mm-hmm. But then once you, once that gets too easy, then it's time to shake things up again, you know? Yes,

  I totally agree. Yeah. I'm now like completely envisioning how I actually use like a waterpark. Like I haven't been to one probably in like 20 years, but that, that would be it and be like, okay, something crazy and exhilarating.

  Okay, chill. Okay, let's go back again. Right? Like, it really is that. To me that's fun. Right.

  Um, you know, like I was talking about in the beginning, Ashley and I have been trying to enjoy this, uh, quarantine and this COVID-19 thing personally as much as we can. So because we have a lot of, um, downtime with our, our work mm-hmm.

  We've been able to get away. And so my family has a place in Montana at, at a lake house. And so we, Ashley and I and her husband and our other friend went out there. We all went whitewater rafting. Awesome. Um, and so that's kind of the same metaphor, like we were kind of coasting down the river and then we hit these huge rapids where we had to work really hard to paddle.

  And then after we got through that we could like relax our muscles a little coast until the next, you know? Mm-hmm.

  So, no, I love it. I love it. And it's. You know, you, you, and that's another great analogy, right? Because you do need the people around you, even if they're people you disagree with, right? Yeah.

  Mm-hmm. So, um, well, actually sometimes

  I learn the most from people I disagree with. Yeah. I mean, whether it, you know, and, and either way, whether it changes my mind slightly or whether it reinforces the opinion I already had, but now I have a better argument for it, or, you know, I'm looking into something else about it, you know, it, it, it doesn't, it's not helpful to just engage with people that think like you.

  Mm-hmm.

  No, like when I hear someone who has something that sounds completely ridiculous to me, I'm like, you're fascinating. Like, come here. Like, I have so many questions. Like, how did you get there? What happened? Like what, what experience did you have where you ended up over there? Like, like that's who I wanna talk to.

  We were, um, recently traveling through Arizona and Utah, and. We had the opportunity to like just kind of sit down around a socially distancing campfire and talk to some people. And it was really interesting to hear like where people are at. There would be people who were, you know, super about like environmental and protecting the national parks and at the same time they would say something so conservative.

  And I was like, oh, humans are so awesome. Like we, it's, and I, and I wish that was reflected more in how we got to make our choices. Right, right. And that this came up, we had our, um, our third episode of a powerful conversation about America on racism, um, last week. And we were talking to the panelists about, you know, what is the one thing that they kinda wish we could move forward from?

  And everyone kind of unanimously said, I want everyone. Um, you know, doing their own research and not thinking partisan and more than anything else people said, how do we get to a place where we can like, make choices based on topics Yeah. And not on party.

  Yeah.

  And so I'm really curious to see where that goes in, in the US because it, it just seems to be a reoc recurring theme of, to your point earlier, like it's all gets smashed together.

  It's really hard to make progress when it's all stuck.

  Mm-hmm.

  Yep.

  And I think that Ruth Bader Ginsburg would agree with what you just said.

  It's like, I wanna award people like Ruth points.

  What else did you guys find on your list of how to be more like Ruth Bader Ginsburg? Um, so this is gonna sound kind

  of cliche, but I actually think it's an important point that, um, you know, she sort of championed is sort of be the change that you wanna see. Um, you know, one thing that I was really surprised about was, um, you know, there was kind of a contentious during her 1993 confirmation hearings, there was, um, kind of a contentious back and forth about sort of her, um, law clerks and the lack of diversity.

  Um, you know, when she was nominated for the Supreme Court, I think she only had one, had only previously had one African American law clerk. And, um, you know, it came up at the confirmation hearings. She was kind of grilled on it, and she said, you know what, I'm gonna be better about that. And in fact she was, yeah, she walked right into that Supreme Court.

  She diversified her law clerks. And you know, I mean, that was shown obviously when she was lying in state and, you know, over a hundred of her law clerks showed up to pay their respects. Um, you know, she really said, you know, and I guess the other part of that too would be not to be afraid to say that you, you are wrong or that you screwed up.

  Yeah. And instead just move forward. Right. So she says, you know what? You're right. I I wasn't good about that. Um, I do need to work on that. And instead of, you know, throwing up her hands and saying, no, you know, it's okay because blah, blah, blah, making excuses or whatever. She said, I'm wrong. I'm gonna fix it.

  Yeah. And she did. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and so that's something that I would say. 'cause I, I feel like, um, you know. People today are so worried about, um, being wrong or admitting they're wrong, um, that a lot of times they end up, you know, making excuses and that ends up pulling them back. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, you know, for me, that's something that I've, I feel like I've always been fairly decent about, you know, if I'm wrong about something, I will tell you that I'm wrong.

  Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, so, because nobody's right all the time, nobody, no. Yeah. Even, you know, even the most s saintly person in the world is wrong sometimes. And so, um, you know, that was something that she really sort of embraced and, and did, was said, you know what? I wasn't doing so great with this aspect.

  Let's figure out how we're gonna change that and make a step to change it. Um, mm-hmm. So, you know, that, that to me, I think would be one of the most overarching, like, how do we be more like RBG? Um. Be the change that you wanna see, be able to admit that you know, you could do better and do it. Yeah. Yeah. Be humble and more, you know, self-aware.

  And instead of just always getting defensive and feeling like you have to defend your actions and, you know, defend your, your behavior in your past, be open to some criticism. And even if at the end you don't agree with that, at least open your ears. Open your mind, open your heart to the fact that other people might have these opinions of you and is, and be self-reflective enough to be able to say, is this something that I need to change?

  Is, you know, was there a reason or justification that I did this? Or act this way. Um, and just be open to the fact that you're not always right and you know, people. Might, might need to change some things and people might make mistakes. Mm-hmm. And it's okay because we are all human. And when you do make mistakes, you own up to it and you apologize and you move on and you learn from it.

  And I think that's how we grow as a society. Mm-hmm.

  Well, I keep thinking of some of the, um, recommendations people have been making for. Uh, improving the police force, you know, whether it is different levels of diversity training or counseling. Some people mentioned, um, getting them into like jiujitsu or other martial arts where they don't need to use their guns as much.

  Like all these things have been listed, right? I, but they all come down, but it won't come back to that. But so many of them are about, um, like all it's things that all humans need. I'm like, how do we roll out some of these practices for like, America of how to stop, like, think about things like how, like you said, how do we not overreact?

  How do we mm-hmm. Take a, how do we take a step and say, hold on, let's make them human. These are things we all need. Yeah. And yes, I want people who are critical foundations of our society to have those mastered, whether they are the fire department or teachers, or you name it. Like we want, you know. The good citizens in that bucket first, but like we all need this.

  'cause it shows up everywhere. Yeah. Um. So with that being said, I'm curious to go back to jujitsu training in the police force since that made you chuckle.

  Yes. Well, I mean, if you were to, let me put it this way. I just don't think that they need any more training in how to brutalize people, but whether, whether it be lethal or not, I just, you know, but so if you're, you know, and, and just to offer sort of a suggestion of what I think would be helpful, I, yeah, I'd love to hear that.

  Um, and actually this sort of, we can bring this back to Justice Ginsburg too, because, um, something that a lot of people dunno, I don't think is that the reason that mental illness is now, um, recognized under the Americans with Disabilities Act is because of, uh, justice Ginsburg, um, that she was, you know, she was the one that made that happen.

  But we have a huge problem with mental illness in this country. Um, I think we're seeing that more and more with the pandemic, with everything that's going on in this country. I mean, I've even had to stop myself sometimes and be like. You know, and Lauren and I too, I mean, the other day came into the office and I said, you know what?

  My mental health is really not great today. You know? Mm-hmm. And Lauren and I sat there and talked about it, and she's like, okay, well do you need to go home right now? Is it helpful to be in the office? You know, like, um, you know, and we talked about what we could do to sort of make me, you know, and I know it doesn't, you know, take it away entirely.

  But, you know, I think that, um, a lot more people are starting to sort of see symptoms of, you know, just taking care of their mental health and whatever. Um, the thing that I think quite frankly would be most helpful is, um, in terms of the police, a lot of police are responding to calls where people are having a mental health crisis.

  Mm-hmm. And they're not, they're just not trained to deal with that. Like, it, it has nothing to do with. Um, you know, them running in necessarily and being like, oh, I'm gonna, you know, shoot this person or shove them down, or whatever. Right. They're just not trained as mental health professionals and they don't know what to do when they get in a situation where somebody is having very active psychosis.

  Um, you know, sometimes even we, 'cause you know, we deal with a lot of clients who are mentally ill too, and, you know, I, we've developed some strategies just from experience and we've had some training, but, you know, we're not, sometimes I even am like, I, I'm not equipped to handle this. And so, quite frankly, for me, I think one of the best things that we can do in terms of, you know, reforming the police is have mental health professionals mm-hmm.

  That can go out on mental health calls and be able to sort of try and deescalate the situation because I think there are certainly, um. Many cases that have sort of been coming out on the news that probably if they had sent a mental health professional, that person wouldn't have been arrested. They wouldn't have been shot.

  You know, because the police just aren't trained to do that and they, you know, they, they shouldn't be, I mean, they have enough they're dealing with. Right. Um, I think it's better to, you know, send in sort of experts in that area. So,

  yeah. I love that. Have you, have you been following the town in Oregon that implemented a strategy like that?

  I don't think I've heard of that one. No.

  I, I, I'll need to, uh, Google it, but there's a town in Oregon that's kind of set up a mental health kind of task force that does exactly that, where they, they really try to use other people in the community to tackle different things before it has to go to the, the top essentially.

  Right. Like, um. Um, but I think that's so critical and there's so many statistics that are coming out now as you've mentioned about like how everyone's mental health during COVID and quarantine has all been affected. Yeah. And I think you saw, at least in our household, people who are extroverts, you saw it hit them first.

  Mm-hmm. And then I'm like a 50 50, it hit me second. Yeah. Like, it's now even hitting like the true introverts. So it's like, you know, and that was alone. I also read the statistic of like, heavy drinking among women is up 40%.

  Yeah.

  Since March. Um, so there's, so, there's so many things and I'm glad that there are a lot of mental health tools that have come out that are, whether they're app based or other things to help people who need it now.

  Right. You can literally use your phone and, and get some level of help if you need it. Um. There's still so much negativity around admitting that you need help or admitting that everything's just not okay. Like that's really, I think where we can start. Yeah.

  Yeah.

  While there is

  still negativity, I think though that our, our country and our society is so much more open to accepting, you know, mental health and just so many other things too that used to be so taboo and so something that you just hush hush.

  You do not talk about that. You don't let anybody know that you're suffering. Um, you know, emotionally, mentally, it's, it's now more accepted. You know, it's, it's okay. And I think more and more people are. Going see therapists and, and confiding in their friends and being open, you know, posting, posting things on Facebook and social media.

  And it's not this stigma.

  There's not so much of this, you know, stigma attached to it. And I think that was, that's a huge step in mm-hmm. You know, addressing these, these issues that everybody has. You know, although that being said, I think because there was such a long period of time where it was stigmatized, there aren't enough resources.

  Yes. Um, so, you know, I really think that that's something that we could, um, improve upon as well is just we need more resources for people who, you know, whether it just be, like you said, you're sitting at home, you're not feeling great, who can I call to like, talk this through with? Um, and while those things do exist and are starting to exist more and more, um, we need exponentially more.

  Yeah, there's, there's definitely in my opinion, a, a need to have it be just part of the educational system in general as well. Like having people, how can we help to self identify when you're not okay. 'cause it's really hard to know is it just a bad day or is it, this is something more, um, people don't like.

  Yeah. It just comes back to the lack of information or resources in general. Like, name the topic and there's not enough. Um, what else do you guys have on your how to be more like Ruth Bader Ginsburg list?

  Um, I'm looking at my notes here for a second. I,

  I

  think, you know, just to bring it back to where we started.

  It's so easy for us today to take for granted, um, how, how kind of easy it is for women to go to law school, how easy it is for women to get a job and to, you know, argue in court. Mm-hmm. And to start our own law firm like Ashley and I did. You know, it's something that we just don't really have a second thought about it.

  It's just, yeah. We wanna start a law, a law firm, so we're gonna start a law firm and it's so, so easy for us to have those opportunities now that it's also easy to forget that only, you know, a few decades ago mm-hmm. When Justice Ginsburg was starting her career, she had to go through so many, it was a totally different world.

  She had to jump through so many hoops and go jump over so many hurdles. Um, just to be one of very, very, very few women. To have the opportunity to even fight, to have an op, you know, the same opportunities mm-hmm. That we, that we have today. And it really was not that that long ago. And I think it's remarkable how drastically far we've come from, from where she started those days that she started in.

  And it's important to kind of reflect and, and, you know, recognize those, those steps and those hardships that these mm-hmm. Trailblazers like Justice Ginsburg, you know, went through to give us the opportunities that we have today.

  Yeah. Really, um, there's an element of being able to honor and really show that it's get back to how sacred even simple things like opening a business or voting really are like, you know, it's, it blows my mind how few people vote every election and.

  There's so many people in the world who wish that, like, that's all they wish they could do. Right? Right. Like, how can I speak up? How can I have a voice? And similarly, the fact that, you know, we get to be in a place where we can have an open conversation like this, and nothing's gonna happen to us, right?

  Mm-hmm. And we can, um, we can all start our own businesses and we can be very independent. And there's a lot of, um, it's, it's a, we have, all of us have more privileges than we even know. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't remember if it was on our previous, uh, podcast or not, but there's that little statistic you can do of like, do you have clean water?

  Do internet, and the whole internet conversation's also even coming up in the US now because of how many people can't do at home work or learning.

  Mm-hmm. Right.

  And. You know, it always baffles me that when people are getting political and we, no one ever stops when they're getting very diversive about politics to just say, how can we just make life a little bit easier?

  To your point about how Ruth Bader Ginsburg moved things. Mm-hmm. Right. And it doesn't, you know, I think we're very far from creating a society where people are, um, lazy. Yeah. And don't do things. 'cause like, I don't, I don't know anyone. In my world that I would call like lazy. Yeah. There are.

  In fact, I, I actually think we've kind of gone in the opposite direction.

  Yes. I think it might do some of us, some good to like slow it down a little bit. Yes, yes. Could be one of the positive this whole, you know, pandemic is, it's making all of us just kind of take a step back and take a beat from our go, go, go, go, go work lifestyle and appreciate, you know, family and introspective, get introspective and some alone time.

  Finally read the 18 books that have been on your nightstand. No, it's, it's true. It's like, uh, I, I don't want things to be hard for people. That's why I have all the businesses that I do. How do we make it easier? Right. And I really wish that's how other people were thinking about the world and about politics or anything.

  I was like, how do we make it easier for people? Because like you said, I do, I believe most people are good, I believe. 99.9% of people are hardworking and they want to be independent and they want their own things. Like even seeing, you know, coming back to mental health, the homelessness in California is like off the charts.

  Yeah.

  And having done, um, some volunteer work in that space, there are people who don't even want a home. They just wanna be like, let, like left to do their own thing. Mm-hmm. And it's like how, like there's so much power in being able to make someone's day easier. Right. So like, how can we all just take that on?

  Like, what would that

  look like? And quite frankly, I think that that's the overarching sort of message about Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I think that's what she was trying to do. I mean, you know, she came from a place, she, she was that sort of second class citizen, you know, she stood in that spot. She felt that discrimination.

  Um, you know, and her entire legal career, that's what she was doing is how can we make this easier for somebody? How can we take one step forward to make it just, you know, tiny bit less harsh or punitive or what, whatever it is. Um, and, you know, she started off doing that for women and then she branched out and started doing it for everybody.

  I mean, that was one of her big, big, she really was the equal justice, justice if you'll, you know, she just wanted exactly what you were saying, things to be just a little bit easier for everybody and, you know, to make those steps forward for everybody so nobody got left behind.

  Mm-hmm. Um, having done your brainstorming before this, uh, call and thinking about the question of how can we all be more like her?

  Are there any things that you guys see that you're gonna be more intentional about in your own lives?

  I know. I'm like, that's a, it's a good question, but I have to like, think about it. I mean, I think for me, um, you know, I, I think I said earlier too, I was actually a little, um, surprised, but happy because, um, I sort of saw myself in the way that she practiced. Mm-hmm. Because I'm not one of, I mean, I do, I can get fiery when I want to, um, yeah.

  Or when I need to, but I'm not one of those lawyers that's, you know, necessarily like, you know, kicking and screaming and fighting the entire time. Um, if I don't, you know, think it's gonna move the case forward or help my client or, you know, whatever that looks like. Um, and so I guess for me, sometimes in my legal career, I felt a little, um.

  Maybe not as confident as I should, um, in sort of how deliberate I'm being with my practice or moving my case forward. And so I think one of the things that I really sort of, um, took and wanna improve upon is just having that confidence in myself to say, you know what? I have the skills to do this. Um, and I'm actually quite good at it and I need to just trust my own judgment.

  Um, you know, whether the person next to me is taking a big leap forward right now, and I'm looking at that going, oh, well why can't I take that bake leap? That's okay. That's okay. I have the skills to take the step that I need to, to take mm-hmm. To make the change that I wanna see. And I just need to, you know, be confident in that and not looking at everybody else being like, oh, well why can't I do it this way?

  Or, why can't I do it that way? Or Why am I not doing it this way? Mm-hmm. So I think that's. Something I will definitely be thinking about going forward. Mm-hmm. And I think for me, I was really inspired by just her kind of out of the box, strategic way of thinking and approaching big, bigger issues. Um, you know, and it can be applied to everyday life.

  It doesn't have to be applied to these big social issues or these big cases, anything in your life or you know, your work life that feels overwhelming and insurmountable and, you know, just impossible to take that leap to accomplish, approach it in like, you know, one step at a time and also mm-hmm. You know, pick your battles.

  You know, don't, don't take on something that's when it's not the right time or the not the right issue or not the right, um, you know, time to cross this off your to-do list or whatever it is, you know, pick. Be aware enough and open and accepting enough of the fact that there's different approaches to things, you know, and really think about it in smaller terms and be more strategic about, you know, let's, let's take this a little, let's just chip away at this one, one step at a time so that it's not so overwhelming.

  Mm-hmm.

  No, I totally agree. I mean, when, when everything, um, after the Joy. Joy, wow. George Floyd. Yeah. Um, death. I remember waking up the next day and feeling the most like frustration. Like, I like it. I, it wasn't, it was just frustrated. Like I was so disappointed that, um, other people weren't taking actions or speaking out the way that I hoped they would.

  And I really had a reckoning kind of in that week of. Having to take it to the next level. And I keep telling everyone that like 2020s a year of like, how many times can you level up? Oh, like just once. Is it good enough this year? How about 10? And it made me just realize that like there's a moment of being like, dammit.

  Like the whole, and this is, I think this is why the, we're not going back to brunch keeps sticking with me. 'cause it's like, okay, like everyone keeps looking at who's gonna do it. And it's like, no, it's us. Like we have to do that. We have to be the leaders. We have to like stand up. We have to go to the meeting, we have to like do the thing.

  And I, we had a, a conversation about like how some people have gotten into coast mode because things were progressing. We were making progress in different areas and topics and. We've realized, kind as you keep talking about how everyone went, oh man. It was just the first step. And so there's this element of, I think of also just grief of like having to give up what life was like when we, when we thought things were working the way they're supposed to.

  And now we know they're not. It's, we're already so busy. We already have so many things going on in our lives. Now we're gonna add another layer to it. And I think there's an opportunity to like go through that frustration and grieving process of like, where are the, where are the adults? And being like, shit, where are the adults?

  Yeah. Yeah. And it's okay to like go through that, that frustration and grief process. But now it's like, to your point, all right, if we have one more thing we have to take care of now, like what has to go? There's only so much capacity that we have and we definitely can't do it by ourselves. 'cause we would all, um, you know, we just couldn't, we wouldn't even go the.

  Make the progress we want in a healthy way. Mm-hmm. Right. So on my side, what I'm taking on is where am I not fulfilling the moniker of powerful ladies? Where am I not, um, where am I leading gaps? Mm-hmm. And not that I need to be the one leading all of the charges, but like, am I at least having the conversations?

  Am I, am I creating the spaces, am I finding people who are experts, um, in these different areas who can educate people and talk about it? Um, because yeah, we just, we need everyone doing just one thing more and like, I think, we'll actually. See some of the results that we want there to be. Yeah. I

  mean, it's the lazy river that we were talking about before, you know?

  Yes. We need, we need more rapids, we need more rollercoasters. Well, and also do what you're good at. Right. You know? Mm-hmm. If, if there's something you know that you're not great at, that's fine. Find what you are good at and find a way to use that to make the change, um, that you wanna see in the country and in society.

  Yes. That sounds like such a fun workshop actually, of like taking the strength finder strategy into social justice. Yeah. Like, that would be so fun. All right, we're gonna add that into a workshop. Well, it has been such a pleasure to see your faces, one and two, get to talk to you guys today. It's always insightful.

  Um, I love what you're doing and what you stand for, and. That you're, you know, part of, part of Team Rapids making things happen for so many other people in your community. Um, COVID or No COVID. So thank you for all the work that you do. Thank

  you for having us back here. It was so nice to see you and talk to you again, and, and we would love to talk to you anytime.

  Yes. Everyone stay safe and sane and healthy out there. Yes, please.

  Lauren and Ashley are the best. It was great to spend an episode featuring their wisdom, their experience, and expertise. I'm left feeling more hopeful. And with a few clear actions we can all take to be more like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and to take powerful ladies to the next level to connect, support, and follow.

  Lauren and Ashley, you can visit their website, butler tline.com and visit the powerful ladies.com/podcast. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of The Powerful Ladies Podcast. There are so many ways you can get involved and get supported with fellow powerful Ladies. First, subscribe to this podcast anywhere you listen to podcast.

  Give us a five star rating and leave a review on Apple Podcast. Follow us on Instagram at Powerful Ladies, join the Powerful Ladies Thrive Collective. This is the place where powerful ladies connect, level up, and learn how to thrive in business and life. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube page, and of course, visit our website, the powerful ladies.com.

  I had like to thank our producer, composer, and audio engineer Jordan Duffy. Without her, this wouldn't be possible. You can follow her on Instagram at Jordan K. Duffy. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Until then, I hope you're taking on being powerful in your life. Go be awesome and up to something you love.

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Created and hosted by Kara Duffy
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