Episode 147: Fighting for Indigenous Education Equity | Daphne Littlebear | Doctoral Candidate & Data Sovereignty Advocate
Daphne Littlebear’s path from early childhood education to pursuing her doctorate has been driven by one goal: to empower Indigenous communities through knowledge. As a leader in data sovereignty and education reform, she’s working to ensure Indigenous students not only have access to education, but that their cultural perspectives are respected and integrated into the learning process. Her work challenges outdated systems, champions representation, and proves how data can be a powerful tool for change.
“When you have more Indigenous researchers in the field, we can be at the forefront of the data that’s collected about us and visibility to that data.”
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National Indian Education Association
American Indian Higher Education Consortium
Creek Shawnee and Uchii from Oklahoma
Mvskoke, Yuchi and Shawnee Nations
Doctorate in Psychology and Social Justice Education
Southwestern Indian-Polytechnic Institute
MPA with a focus on Ed Leadership
National Boarding School Coalition - truth and healing
Mass Graves in Canada Boarding Schools
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Follow along using the Transcript
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Daphne Littlebear
01:20 The role of education in Indigenous communities
03:15 Why representation in leadership matters
05:00 What data sovereignty means for Native nations
07:30 Building culturally responsive education systems
09:45 Lessons from early childhood education
12:00 The challenges facing Indigenous students today
14:10 Using data to influence policy change
16:15 Navigating graduate studies as an Indigenous woman
18:40 The importance of community engagement in research
21:00 Success stories from education initiatives
23:15 How cultural traditions shape learning
25:30 Creating space for Indigenous voices in academia
27:45 Advice for aspiring advocates and educators
How many natives can read, and it was like that was a statistical data set. Who's capable of reading, who's not? When you think about that, it's really racist, you know, it's horrible. But now when we think about data sovereignty, it's like, what questions are we asking? What data is appropriate to collect? Who should be collecting it?
That's Daphne Little Bear, and this is The Powerful Ladies Podcast.
Hey guys, I'm your host, Kara Duffy. Statistics and Education are a part of our everyday lives in American culture. What we don't often think about is how the presentation of education to kids can change their acceptance to or trust in that education. Similarly, we often are not looking at how our data is being gathered for us to make decisions as the community.
Today's guest, Daphne Little Bear is taking on all of that for indigenous and native communities in America. I'm excited for you to hear her journey and to get a new perspective on what it means to be counted and understood in America.
Well, I am really excited to get to have a conversation with you today. Yeah, me too. Let's begin. Please tell everybody your name, where you are in the world and what you're up to.
Yeah, so my name's Daphne Little Bear. I am in Santiana Pueblo, New Mexico. I am also, um, from Santa Ana, Pablo. I'm also Creek Shawnee and UJI from Oklahoma.
So I'm an indigenous woman
and you're working on a really amazing dissertation right now. Uh, your dissertation is affirming the educational sovereignty of Santa Ana Pueblo, the intersections, community based education, western schooling, and tribal citizenship.
Yeah, that is correct. So that is my working title for my dissertation.
I'm currently in the final stages and hope to defend in, um, coming this summer of 2022, so soon to be
Doctor Dr. Little Bear, which is so exciting. Congratulations. Um, what will your doctorate be in? Because most people hear doctor, and they think either psychology or they think medical doctor, what, what will your doctorate degree be in?
So my doctorate, uh, will be a doctorate philosophy and social justice education,
which is very powerful and very needed right now. Um, how long have you been working on that and and how did you know that that's the path that you wanna take?
Well, I actually didn't really know that was the path. I didn't think I was gonna get a doctorate.
Like I wasn't, that wasn't something that I planned for. It wasn't something that I didn't even really know what a doctorate degree was. So I guess I could start there. Um, so I actually started, um, my doctoral program in 2000. Fall of 2015. So it's been a while. I actually took some time off in the dissertation writing phase because, you know, I had lost my father and I think I needed to step back and take some time to mourn in grief the loss of my father.
And so I've been recently getting back into it, but it's been really challenging to work, um, throughout, um, throughout the pandemic. Mm-hmm. Because I, I also work full-time, um, with the American Indian Higher Education Consortium as their deputy, um, director of research in, um, student success. Um, so I'm working full-time, I'm trying to finish this doctorate as well as, um, you know, I have a family and I'm very involved in my community here in Santa Ana.
So you just have a few things going on. No big deal. Yeah, I have a few things going on and, you know, I like to support my friends and, and indigenous community as much as I can. So, yeah, just have a, a few things happening, but it's all very exciting. It's all very community oriented and I think, you know, we all support each other in each other's goals, but, um, yeah, so I didn't know, I, I'm actually a first gen.
Mm-hmm. So, um, I had my daughter when I was fairly young, uh, you know, didn't know. Um, my mom kind of just advised me at the time. She, you know, she had put to me that I needed to do something with my life. Like she wanted me to do something with my life. I was a young mother and she, you know, said, you can either work full time, you know, or go back to school and I will help you as best as I can.
And so at the time I was like, alright, I'm gonna go to, I'm gonna go to college. Um, I went to junior college. It actually a tribal, it was a tribal college here in New Mexico called, um, Southwestern Indian Polytechnical Institute. And, um, I went there and I, you know, declared liberal arts as a major. Didn't really know what liberal arts was.
No one in my family, you know, didn't have their bachelor's degree or didn't really go to college. So, um, I started there and, you know, finished with a small. Infant child and transferred on to, um, the University of New Mexico. Um, how I got there was one of the advisors at the tribal college. She was so supportive of all students, like, you know mm-hmm.
Being a young mother, I was working retail, so I was working retail, going to school, and I think I was just really overwhelmed. And I went to one of my advisors and I was crying because I was like, I don't know, I'm gonna do this. Mm-hmm. I don't, I don't, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. This is hard.
And, um, anyhow, when I got close to new to graduation, she was like, you gotta go on, like you're. You're not done yet. Like you still gotta go and get your bachelor's degree. And I was like, what was that? What's a bachelor's degree? And um, so she helped me fill out the paperwork and I transferred, uh, went in as a transfer student and went to the University of New Mexico and declared, um, my major in sociology.
And at the time I was like wanting to go to law school. So, you know, everything was geared towards pre-law. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, so I did a minor in English to do pre-law. And so, um, when I started taking social classes, I had an amazing professor. Um, she was a statistician and she just like worked us so hard.
That I really enjoyed statistics. I really enjoyed, you know, running, you know, analysis and learning how, you know, data is collected. And that's where my kind of passion grew for research. Um, and what we call, you know, I'll get into it a little bit, but that was a very western way of research that I learned.
And, and, um, one of the things I remember is like, there's not a lot of databases that focused in, like for Native Americans or indigenous people. Mm-hmm. Or even people of color. It's all very generalized. And so anyhow, uh, you know, I learned these skills and working with my classmates, they were talking about this program called Ronald e McNair.
Mm-hmm. And it's a research program, so they were like, you gotta, um, they're like, we're all gonna apply. You should apply. So, um, I applied to the program, got accepted and the Ronald E program is actually to help, um, to help, you know, um, low income students of color, um, first generation students, um, actually aspire to graduate studies.
So that's kind of where, yeah, so that's where that kind of all started. And, you know, I started in that program. They were like, you're gonna do a full research, you are gonna complete, um, an IRB, which is an institutional review board application for an original study, and you're gonna work with a professor and a mentor, and we're gonna, you know, um, guide you on, on what it means to become a researcher and how to apply to graduate school.
And so, um, it was a very tedious project and I was still working retail at the time. I, you know, my daughter was, you know, growing up a toddler. I would take her everywhere with me. And I was still very much involved in my, my community. Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, getting involved in that research program, I wanted to be involved in, like student activities.
I wanted to contribute to the community. So, you know, I became, um, the president of a student organization and it was called Nassar. From there, we just, you know, pre we worked on research, presented at conferences. That's very cool. Conferences and traveled. And, um, just fast forward, like years later, um, you know, graduated.
I was a, like I said, I was a first gen graduate of my family and post-graduation it was 2000, 2008, and that was a recession. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that was a really rough time. Mm-hmm. So I, I didn't really have a job line like lined up. I went back to work retail. Um, and I think, you know, I started working, you know, found a position with my tribe working in, um, a tribal education department.
So the tribal education department is similar to, um, a state education department, but it's for the tribe. And so this is where my career started in education. Um, and when I was working with the tribe, you know, law school was always a goal. Mm-hmm. So I did apply to law school and, you know, I, I went through a program, like a pre-law summer program and I thought law school's not really for me.
Like mm-hmm. You know, I enjoy reading the law, I enjoy understanding it, but I don't know if I really wanna become a lawyer. I wanna work in like educational policy or edu or become an advocate of educational, like better educational systems for native students. And so I ended up going to get my MPA mm-hmm.
With a focus in ed leadership. So I took a couple classes in the ed leadership program and um, during the same time I started, um, you know, one of my friends had asked me. To run for the school board, the local school board. And you know, I, I looked into it. I went to, um, there's a training program at the time, I can't remember what it's called, but it was for women of color to see if they wanted to run for public office.
And it, I just felt overwhelmed. I was like, I'm not ready to do that. That, that seems like a lot of work. I think it's mostly like the election process that
Yeah.
Intimidated me, you know?
Mm-hmm. To put
myself out
there because, um, you could do the work, but the election part's a whole other beast.
Yeah. The election part's a whole nother beast.
And I think, I don't know, but I just, I've always had this kind of fear of putting myself out in a public way like that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it felt super real. If you had to run for the school board, you would have to put yourself out like that, right? Mm-hmm. Um. And I was, and I also didn't feel confident in my abilities.
A little bit like I felt, you know, I still needed to grow. But, um, so anyhow, my friend, I was telling one of my other friends, like, you know, I don't think I'm gonna run. I don't think I'm ready. And they're like, well, I'm gonna nominate you for a different board. Um, and it was the National Indian Education Association.
They're like, we'll nominate you for that. You can run as a student since you're still in grad school. And I was like, okay. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it's like, no, not the local board. I'll do the national board. Um. It's, you know, NIA, it's a national, um, organization. It's over 50 years old. Um, they do a lot of advocacy for indigenous education.
Um, and their headquarters is in DC so they do advocacy on the hill. They do advocacy regionally, locally, um mm-hmm. Um, you know, with state agencies. And they do a, they also are, have becoming a technical assistance center for, for, um, indigenous educators across the nation.
Very cool. So you, um, diving into the indigenous educational system in at least the us, where, where is it doing great and, and where, where are the gaps that continue to show up where advocates like you are just so important?
So one thing is that for Indi, so. If you look at any statistics when it comes to education, you're always gonna notice that native students, um, are very low performing in a lot of areas. Um, but I don't think that really tells the story of native students fully. Mm-hmm. You know, there's, um, I have the standpoint that, you know, student based assessments are inherently racist testing systems.
Um, and then two, there's in adequate services and resources that are, that are channeled to, um, what we call like native serving districts, like school districts or school systems. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And this is gonna bring up another part of it, but, um. So there's what we call schooling, right? Mm-hmm. Public, um, American public schooling, that's called schooling.
And then there's indigenous education. So indigenous education, um, is any type of learning that takes place within an indigenous setting, um, like within our community, it could be like native languages. Mm-hmm. It could be native farming, it could be, um, you know, creating regalia. It could be like any type of learning.
Mm-hmm. Um, you know, indigenous people have, have, um, you know, have all these different unique skill sets that have allowed us to flourish for so many centuries and so many years. Mm-hmm. Um, and that those aspects of indigenous identity are not necessarily incorporated in American schooling systems.
Mm-hmm. We barely even. Know the history of indigenous people in public schooling. Like I growing up, didn't learn my own history until I was in college, and I had to seek that out for myself. Mm-hmm. So we're, we're dealing with the very inherently racist system. And then on the other side, we go back to history.
Um, there is, um, a policy called the Indian Boarding Schools. Yeah. And Indian boarding schools are, um, what they did was they kidnapped indigenous stu, like, so, so a long time ago, you know, when they were organizing these boarding schools, it went, it was, it was the US government organizing these boarding schools a lot with, um, with, um, pa um, with churches like mm-hmm.
You know, different like, um, the Catholic church, the. Christian churches, they received funds, federal funds from the US government to organize these boarding schools. And so, um, these boarding schools weren't necessarily to, to empower indigenous people or students. They were more or less to acculturate us and to assimilate us into American society.
Mm-hmm. And so, um, you know, it's really, it's a really heavy, heavy history for this country and for us. Yeah. But when you think about how education was introduced to indigenous people, that, that, that overarching kind of idea is still very much present in today's school systems. Yeah. And you know, if you, you can even like search, there's a, gosh, I'm trying to remember what the.
The organization is called, but it's the National Boarding School Healing Coalition. Mm-hmm. And, um, they are based in the north, um, west region of the country. And they're about truth and healing and, um, truth in healing in terms of like, what is the true history, what are the heal, what is the healing that is taking place?
And how can allies support in, um, you know, and support, in support in, in truth, in healing for indigenous communities. Um, currently there, this is really sad, but there are, um, mass graves that are currently being unrevealed in Canada and in this country Yes. Of children who attended these boarding schools.
And so I, you know, for myself as an advocate, it's, it's. Tally these true histories. Mm-hmm. But also, um, our children have to go to school. It's kind of a, it's a state law, right? Yeah. It's a state law. But our, our children deserve opportunities. They deserve to flourish, they deserve to, you know, um, be who they are.
Mm-hmm. And how do we make education systems healthy for them? You know, how do we support that? How do we target resources for them to flourish in these systems now, um, things are not perfect, but they are getting better. Um, you, you see, um, so here locally, I will say, um, there's a school, it's not in the public schooling, but it's more in a tribally controlled school.
It's the Santa Fe and Indian public, um, Santa Fe Indian, Santa Fe Indian School. And they're just doing phenomenal things up there, you know, with their curriculum. With their services. And it's, it's really governed by, um, the 19 bubbles here. And, you know, even the educators that are flourishing in terms of how do they indigenize their curriculum.
And a lot of those students are going to, um, you know, very elite, like elite universities, you know, Stanford, Harvard, um, public institutions. So, you know, I think it is, it's just creating these opportunities for our students to really, truly learn and be who they are and mm-hmm. And have education as an exchange rather than like a top down, like the teacher.
Right. So they're learning together.
Yeah, there is, um, even in the completely western, uh, American schools that I've been to, there was still conversations of how do we approach people where they are and it's. I've been to 11 different schools growing up, we moved a ton and seeing just how different schools in different cities and states taught differently, whether it was, you know, how can kids perform in 700 cl size, you know, grades or how can kids perform and there's only 80 kids in a grade and seeing the differences, the education system in the US is something that I know at some point I will get more involved in because I've seen different things.
And to me, like I'm, I'm a lover of learning and I just, I want other people to know that if you love learning, you can literally learn whatever you want and create whatever you want. And I, it breaks my heart hearing these stories or sharing of, of people resisting, um, or not resisting 'cause it wasn't on the on, on them, but like being introduced to education in a way that makes you want to resist it.
Because it, it was forced or it was aggressive, or it just was like taking, stripping away your identity in order to have it, which is all heartbreaking.
Yeah. You know, and I think, like I said, there's systems that are getting better, but there's, there's still so much work to be done. Um, and this month it's, I know this episode's not gonna air till later, but mm-hmm.
We're currently in November and it's Native American Heritage Month. Mm-hmm. And so I think one of the ways to get involved is to just, um, start, you know, following some native driven organizations. Um, a lot of these native organizations have like, call to action of how you, we can support each other, how allies can support, um, you know, even just sharing their information with, um, you know, with your.
With your network of, of friends or network of professionals it supports because I think a lot of it has to do with just recognizing, um, the history that happened and then being like, okay, that history happened. Um, where are we now and how can I support? And a lot of these organizations talk about, um, you know, if we are doing these action movements that indigenous people be at the forefront of the conversations that we take their lead and what they are asking for because mm-hmm.
Each region is completely different. Mm-hmm. And what kind of supports that they need. So I guess for me it was, you know, working with the tribal education department, working with the public schools, that really got me interested. And then, you know, my, my, um, aspiration to be, um, to go to law school was like reading, you know, these case laws about mm-hmm.
About how it's impacted us and, and looking at educational policy and being, wow, this is like a, a really huge thing. So, you know, that's why I ended up going to get my master's and ended up working with, um, NIA and, um, you know, towards the end of my master's program, I always, you know, it was, so the, one of the reasons that I didn't go to law school, not when, but this, this actually stands out in my head, is, um, when I was telling one of my mentors, like, oh, I applied for law school.
And she looked at me and she told me, she's like, Daphne, you're not a lawyer, you're a researcher. And I was crushed. I was like, why are you telling me this? I already applied, or I'm already in the process of applying. Mm-hmm. And it's not that, you know, it's just weird. 'cause I, I, she saw me in a different light that I guess I didn't recognize in myself.
But, um, when I was finishing my master's program. I knew I wanted to go get my doctorate, I just didn't know where. And then this opportunity presented itself with Arizona State, um, university. And it was a program that was focused for Pueblo people, um, you know, Pueblo indigenous people within New Mexico.
And it was in, um, social justice studies. Mm-hmm. And I was like, okay, I have, you know, I'm a planner, so I've always had like my letter, um, my personal statement, my CV updated, I always had like a reference list of people I would ask for recommendation letters. Like I always have this tucked away, like it just ready to use at some.
And I, I saw the application date. It was like, I think I had a month to apply and I was like, oh my God, that's really short time. But I was like, okay, I can do this. And I literally rushed around, got everything really last minute and applied. And, um, it was really scary 'cause I was like, I don't know how this is.
Like, I don't know, like, we'll see what happens. Right? Yeah. And, um, I finished up my master's, so that was another thing that was like, um, another highlight because I was not only first gen for a bachelor's, but first gen for getting a master's in my family and Thank you. And at the time, um, you know, I was with my tribe working for my tribe for six years, but I wanted to grow.
I wanted to grow professionally, and I resigned for my tribe. And that was really hard. Um, and I had another position lined up, but, um, it was like a turning point, you know? Mm-hmm. It was a turning point because I, I, this other position I took was advi. Um, worked for a community college as Avis as an advisor.
So it was away a little bit away from my focus area of working with native students, but I just felt like I needed to grow professionally. And so it seemed like all these things were kind of tant up in the air at one point. And, um, you know, the, I didn't stay very long with the community college. It was like I, um, I think I only stayed for about six months and I thought, this isn't where I need to be.
And I resigned. And, um, around the time that I resigned, I had nothing, like, I didn't have a job. I didn't know if I was gonna go back to grad school. I didn't, haven't heard whether I was accepted or not. Mm-hmm. And I, it just felt super scary. It felt so scary. 'cause I, that wasn't like me. I would always have something lined up before I left a position, or I would have a part-time job or I would know, I would know what I was doing.
Um, I would say about a week later, after I resigned from my position, um, on our feast days, so we have feast days, um, here in the Pubble and it was on our feast day, um, July 25th. And I got a, a phone call from an Arizona area code. And I answered the phone and it was Dr. Elizabeth Samita Mann, who called me and said, congratulations, you, um.
Have been accepted into the program and um, we just need to, we'll give you some time whether you wanna accept, but I just wanted to call you personally and let you know that you have been selected to be, um, in the cohort, in the public cohort and focused in, um, justice studies and, um, we look forward to hearing back whether you would like to, um, start the program.
And I was like, oh my God, is this really happening? This happening? Right. So I, I was like, well, thank you. I appreciate you calling. Um, yeah, like, I just didn't, I don't even know how I ended the conversation. I just know that I, like, I was standing in the living room with my family and I was like, looking around.
I told them I got accepted, like I'm gonna start the doctoral program. Mm-hmm. Like, this is happening right now. And everyone was super excited for me, but none of my family knew what a doctoral program, like, all they've known is like, I've been in school
probably forever from their perspective.
Yes.
Forever. It's like, you know, and being first gen, you get these comments where it's like they're happy but they don't really know what it is. Or they're like, well, what does that mean? Like, are you gonna get a job? Like, are, you know, because for my, my mother's gener, like my mother, my auntie, and their generation, like success was.
A government job. Mm-hmm. Or working with a really high profile company where you have benefits, right? Mm-hmm. And you get a retirement, like for them that was like security. Mm-hmm. Like their sense of success is like this, the security of, of having, um, of a constant paycheck. And I think for my generation, I feel like, I mean, I don't know if it's my generation or if things have shifted because the market shifted, right?
Mm-hmm. You don't, you don't see a lot of people in positions for 20, 30 years anymore, right? Not at all. Mm-hmm. And then for me it was like, how do I explain to my family that I just don't wanna be somewhere like for 20 or 30 years? How do I explain to them and how can I, like, have them be proud of me that, that I am that.
Taking on my life in a different way. Mm-hmm. And that, you know, this engaging in, in college or working or being part of a move an a movement for indigenous people looks different. Mm-hmm. And I'll be okay. Like, yeah, I'll be okay. Like, I'm not gonna, you know, not have a, like, I'm not gonna starve. I'm not gonna, like, I have a home.
I, you know. Mm-hmm. I have a vehicle, I have income. Like I can support myself in this way. It just may not look like what they want for me. So I think that was a really hard thing for my family to accept. Mm-hmm. Um, but I just had to tell him to trust me and that, and that I have, like, I don't know where I'm going, but I have a sense of what I need to do to get there, because that sounds, that sounds interest a little bit weird, but it made sense to me and.
I think the reason why it felt good is because I surrounded myself with like-minded people, right? Mm-hmm. And I just had amazing friends that were kind of in the same boat. I had mentors, and not only that, but when I started the doctoral program, you're around different conversations that you may not be around like in other spaces.
And so, um, I was like, so for me, I was like, okay, this doctoral program, I'm gonna finish. I'm gonna, you know, work in academia. But now, like, almost at the end of it, it's different. Like, I'm not sure what's gonna happen for me in the future, but I'm starting to plan. And there's a few things I've learned along, along the way.
But the doctoral program for me, I guess starting it, it was amazing because I had a cohort of 11. There was a cohort of 11, and so I had 10 other. Um, Pueblo scholars that I worked with, um, that we learned together, and they're all in different type of fields, whether it be education, whether it be, um, planning.
Mm-hmm. Um, whether it be the health field. And I think we all supported each other through the process. And I do miss them because some of them have graduated and some of them were still working on our dissertation. But, um, but for me now, um, I guess during this part, when I started the doctoral work, I actually found a position I, um.
Like, again, I was between things. I was doing contract work and I think this is where my family was kind of worried. They're like, you need a job. Right. Um, but I found a position and it was with the New Mexico, um, public education department working in the Indian Education Office. Mm-hmm. And that job, um, was more of educational policy focused.
And when I was working there, I was working full-time and doing my doctoral work full-time. Mm-hmm. So it was like double and of course, um, it's a lot. Yeah. It was, it was a lot. And when I walked into the position, I, I always knew working for a state agency was political, but it wasn't like, I didn't feel like I was prepared for what I was gonna enter into.
Mm-hmm. And this was also, um, when I got my state job, part of my family was really. Really, really happy 'cause it, 'cause this was something that they knew, like, they were like, oh, you have a government job that's amazing. Like you can stay there for 30 years and you can retire, you'll be taken care of. And I was just like, didn't wanna burst their bubble, but I wasn't gonna stay there for 30 years.
Yeah. You're
like, Hmm. Yeah. Like
I just let them have their moment and I was just, took their advice. But when I took on the position, um, it was really focused on, on educational policy, um, educational sovereignty. And actually we have this piece of legislation here in New Mexico that's called the Indian Education Act.
And it was operationalizing the act into real, um, practices on the ground. Cool. And so, um, we had just passed, they had just recently passed. Um. Pass every student succeeds act at the federal level that required tribal consultation. And so that was part of my job was, um, carrying out tribal consultation here in New Mexico, like, um, you know, training, training the school districts on what tribal consultation is, um, supporting the tribes and, and how to have a meaningful consultation.
Mm-hmm. And not only that, but uh, another part of my job was, um, was, um, making sure, 'cause we received, um, appropriations, um, through the state and it was pro, um, you know, providing grants, um, and funding to the tribes and to the school district. So I did a lot of managing the tribal, um. The tribal grants, grants to the school districts and to the, um, to the tribes as well.
Mm-hmm. And then we had an annual report that we had to produce every year. So I worked with our team in producing this annual report every, every year, which, um, the annual report was to, to give our stakeholders a sense of where we were, um, at, in indigenous education in New Mexico. And there was other initiatives and other conversations in the building, but it was really interesting working for the state.
It was interesting to be in that building and understand how educational policy is formed in New Mexico and who was part of the conversations and who was driving those conversations and you know, where and how, how we received funding and how it got delivered. And thinking also probably manifesting too, like that we could do better.
Mm-hmm. Um, and working with. Educator, educators across the state and how we could do better for our students. Um, I'm no longer with the state anymore, but for the time being, it was, you know, um, my first position as an administrator and it was really interesting for me to be, um, at that level. Mm-hmm. But to also learn and how I could support and, and it was a lot of, um, what I did also was train my colleagues on cultural competency.
Yeah. Um, within the actual, um, within the actual like administration and so. A lot of the times, you know, I was invited to work with my colleagues in other offices, and how do we better engage indigenous communities, or how can we get the message out there? Um, you know, or can you take a look at this? And, and, and, you know, we need tribal voice in this, in this, um, policy.
So that was really good to be, I felt like a diplomat a lot of the time. Yeah. It was like very diplomatic work.
And I would imagine, you know, as first generation and, and being of both the western American world and the indigenous American world, you probably feel like you're an ambassador every day. Like, you're tr you're translating back and forth every day and being like, uh, actually, or I have a que Like, I feel like that's what you're, you and you must feel like that every day.
Is that, is that accurate?
Yes, that is accurate. Um, like I said, I'm not with the state. I moved, um, again with the state, I, I wanted to move up in my career. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, I found myself at a crossroads. Like I could stay here, you know, a few more years or I can see what else is out there. And, um, one of my mentors, um, she is, you know, located in DC and she's been so amazing to me, but she has sent me a job announcement for the position I'm at now.
And she's just like, you should apply Daphne. I think, you know, um, even if it, even if it's applying just for the audition. Mm-hmm. Like, you should see how this looks and feels. And so at the time I had had kind of like, you know, I think in every position you get to a point where it's like. Okay. I've learned my job, I do my job well.
Like what else? Like, do I move up? Um, do I take on a new project or do I do something else? And so that was at that point with the state, like, um, I don't know if I,
oh, and I think that speaks to you being curious, right? And you learn like, 'cause there are people who get so happy in what they're doing, but I love the fact that you're like, okay, I'm bored.
I've grown out of this. What's next?
Yeah. Or I wanna grow more, or mm-hmm. I, I feel like I have so much more to offer. I think for me it's always like, yeah, I have so much more to offer. Yeah. You know, and, and sometimes I feel like my skill sets are not being utilized to the full capacity that they could be.
And so I'm like, how can I utilize my skillset more?
Well, you, and I'm sure every day you're seeing the gap that still needs to be corrected and filled. And you're like, guys, we have so much work to do, let's go. Yeah, exactly. And,
and I just, so I applied for this position with ahec, and AHEC is, um, an advocacy group, um, an a advocacy organization, um, in Washington, DC as well.
And they do advocate for educational sovereignty and higher education for tribal colleges and universities. Um, as you recall, I started off at a tribal college, um, here in New Mexico. So I just felt like, wow, like I'm at this point in my life where, where I can apply for this position and I actually get to be in a position to support native our tribal college students and native students in a different way.
Like, that was me years ago. That was me years ago thinking of what, what is college? Right? What is, what does that even mean? Mm-hmm. And, um. The interview was probably the most amazing interview that I've ever had in my life. The interview wasn't like, um, a one-sided conversation, it was more of a discussion.
Mm-hmm. And, um, I think the next day I was offered the position and I was really excited. Amazing. Excited. Yeah. I was really excited about it because, you know, it was the first time I actually negotiated a salary that I was worth. Um, and that felt like an accomplishment in itself because I don't think I was ever in a po.
Like, no, no, no. I take that back. I don't think I was ever comfortable discussing a salary that, that I needed. Mm-hmm. You know, for myself and my family. And I, I wanna emphasize that because I've worked with, um. Mariosa strategies. She's here in New Mexico, she's an amazing coach. And I, I wanna kind of say a little bit about that too.
Mm-hmm. And I also started, um, taking some workshops from Native American lead, and they're an amazing organization and I think they train, they changed the way that I view myself as mm-hmm. As a woman of color, um, you know, professional, whether, you know, whatever that looks like. And I just felt like had I not engaged in some of, um, those networks mm-hmm.
I probably wouldn't have had the courage to ask for a salary, um, for myself that I was worth.
And, and I wanna pause for a second because I, I wanna just acknowledge you for. Like who you are for yourself, right? Because you're, you know, I hear that you are motivated to keep pushing and what's next and how else can I make an impact?
So much for the communities and the people that you're serving and the students, but it's also like you, like you're, it sounds like you are so good at, at listening to the voice in your head or your heart that's like, there's more like go for more because, you know, there are all these amazing programs and these leadership opportunities and you keep being like, I'll do that.
And, and maybe it doesn't feel as confident when you say yes right away, but like, you keep doing it. So like, I just wanna say like, good for you, Daphne. Like, good for you for being like, we are doing more. I want more. And it's, as a coach, I, I, nothing breaks my heart than people being. I don't know. Not for me.
And to see you just like, I'll take this and I want this, and yes, I'll have that and I'll work. Yes, yes, yes. Like I, I just, I've just met you and I just feel this over sensing feeling of just like, I'm impressed of like, what a badass you are. Oh, thank
you. You, you know, I really have to credit my community, my family.
Mm-hmm. And even my, my, my friends, um mm-hmm. My chosen families because I am just surrounded by very strong women around. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we all have our pitfalls. We all have those days where we're like, I don't know what we're doing. Mm-hmm. We cry together, but we manifest our dreams together and we give each other feedback.
And I think that's. What that, that's kind of where I'm at, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and I think I'm really brutally honest with myself sometimes, where it's, it is overwhelming, it is difficult, and there are a lot of barriers. But I will, I will attribute, um, my, my resiliency to my family because, you know, I was raised by, um, a lot of single women and my grandmother was a widower.
Mm-hmm. And so, very early in her marriage. And so to me it was like they, you know, they, they, I don't know if they, like, it was a, it was more of a survival. Mm-hmm. You know, survival. Like, we gotta do this for our families. We gotta do this for our children, we gotta do this for our communities. And I will say now, um, my mom, she worked, you know, in a factory job like.
My whole life until later in her life. Like she's doing what she wanted to do all these years now. Mm-hmm. My mother is a native language teacher and she worked in like wellness programs and, and she's like, right now I look at her and I'm like, you finally get to do the work that you wanted to do. And, and I, you know, I think this is part of like first gen or even like bipoc first gen, is that, is that, um, have I felt guilty about being, um, selfish, uh, not maybe felt guilty about pursuing my own path in my own way.
Yeah. I felt like sometimes that's been mm-hmm. Selfish, but I also feel like it's not selfish because this is what our parents and our ancestors wanted for us, but. Unfortunately the error or times that they grew up in provided a different type of like mm-hmm. Limited possibilities or opportunities. And so sometimes I feel like our generations, like we clash, but I also feel like, like we clash because we experience things different, but we also love each other because we're supporting each other and, you know, um, I get to have, I get to have this, how would you say this?
Like, I feel very fortunate to be able to do the things I've done in my life or, or be who I wanted to be in my life because maybe my grandmother didn't. Yeah. I don't know how I, I, I think that's really hard to talk about that, you know, those, those intergenerational things, but I think it's important mm-hmm.
To acknowledge them as well.
Yeah. It's, it's, I, I think especially it's part of the female experience, right? You know, each generation keeps having more and more opportunities than the ones before us. And, um, it, there's, we, you know, we're, we're fighting the fight or we're doing the work that our grandparents or grandmothers and great-grandmothers and even mothers like, couldn't have imagined was even a choice that we had.
Um, you know, I wanna come back to something that you said earlier about the power of statistics and why you ended up in this research space. Because, you know, so often decisions are made every day about data. And if the data is incomplete or bad, or old or outdated. Like, we can't, there's, you know, we can't get back to the truth of what we're trying to discuss, right?
There's so much conversation about fake news right now, and, um, it is easy to rearrange statistics so that they suit what you want to argue. Mm-hmm. But it really comes down to root of just having the data in the first place, which is what you're creating for people or have been throughout your career. H how, how, I would love for you to speak to that of like, needing the statistical data for the native and indigenous populations in the us.
Like, give people a sense of like, how much of that is missing, um, for those who have no idea about this, uh, topic at all.
So there's, it's not a new concept, but it is, um, a new, a new. Um, theory to academia. Um, that's becoming, um, increasingly more, um, people are more well aware of it. It's called in, um, data sovereignty.
And there is a group of indigenous scholars that focus on data sovereignty. Um, and, and they're, you know, they've been publishing a lot of work about, um, about data sovereignty and tribes controlling their own data and data collect collection. And that's what,
and that's what data sovereignty means. Like the data's coming from the people.
The data's about
Yes. Or the, or indigenous people are at the forefront of how to, um, conduct research or data collection. Mm-hmm. Or asking the questions like. Are relevant to indigenous communities. And not only that, but I, I will kind of take, just take a brief moment in history that native people have been very surveillance.
And so when I go, when I talked about the boarding schools, there are, um, congressional records and studies about data collecting. And, and I remember I was actually at Muske Creek, um, tribal College when I was looking at some archives and I found, you know, some congressional records and it was like, how many natives can read?
And it was like, that was a statistical data set, right? Mm-hmm. Who's capable of reading, who's not? Like, when you think about that, it's really racist. Um. You know, it's horrible. But now when we think about data sovereignty, it's like what questions are we asking? Mm-hmm. What data is appropriate to collect?
Who should be collecting it? Mm-hmm. Who should store that data? Who should have access to the data? And not only that, but for a long time, researchers, our non-native researchers came into our communities, collected data, but didn't really, um, share out the data with us. Mm-hmm. Or misuse the data. Mm-hmm. And there's like a really high profile court case about misuse of data concern, um, regarding Arizona State and the Havasu High Tribe.
So now when you have more indigenous researchers in the field, we can be. At the forefront of those conversations, right? Mm-hmm. And we can educate our colleagues. So a lot of my position now as, um, with AHEC is we do work with multiple, um, foundations and organizations, and I do talk a lot about data sovereignty or even visibility.
Mm-hmm. So native populations are so small that sometimes we're not even visible in the data sets that, um, that are even being collected. Mm-hmm. Um, there was this huge joke last year during the presidential election and CNN you can actually Google it, but CNN just put, um, something else. Like, instead of saying Native, native, native Americans, they put something else.
So if you like Google something else and native, um, native Americans that this whole segment with CNN will pop up. So it like made us visible that. Like, you know, we're even, like, our populations may be small mm-hmm. But they are impactful, like even in presidential or local elections. And, um, you know, having, it was even shown last year that, um, Arizona flipped to blue.
Mm-hmm. And a lot of it was because they had the highest native turnouts last year in voter, in voter registration, and in voting, you know, and it was largely democratic. So I think one of the main things with data sovereignty is visibility and then data sovereignty. Who controls the data? How is the narrative being put place?
So with ahec, they have a unique database that's called, um, AHEC aims, American Indian Measurements of Success. Mm-hmm. And it's a unique database set that looks at, um. Looks at, um, tribal colleges and universities primarily in, um, reporting out, um, you know, the, um, university statistics, demographics, um, you know, first gen.
Um, so basically how the, how the university is performing in itself and, and who, you know, retention rates, graduation rates, um, what fields, you know, are, are the highest of population. Is it like in stem, is it in English? Is it in history? And so, um. It's a really unique data set that's driven by the tribal colleges, and we're still thinking, you know, there's still areas on how we can improve it, but I think that's the fun work is having a team of indigenous researchers or individuals or good allies that support data sovereignty and thinking like, how can we improve this data set?
How can we, um, you know, what, you know, what are we missing? What is gonna support more of, um, tribal colleges or native students collectively? And, and just sharing those thoughts with huge, um, foundations or research organizations and like, you know, we need to do better or, or if you can be a better ally to us, these are the ways that you can mm-hmm.
And it's always connecting them with an indigenous researcher as well.
I remember when I was, um, in school, we had a. A standardized test done, and it ended up being really controversial. And the one question I remember that caused controversy is, where do apples come from? And it was multiple choice, and two of the answers were, they come from like a tree or it comes from the store.
And this is, you know, just an example of that I have in my life of asking a bad question.
Mm-hmm.
Because anyone that was, you know, in a more rural place, picked the tree. Mm-hmm. Anyone that lived in a more urban place picked the store, but option B with the store was the wrong answer. Even though the kids were right.
Yeah. And, and it's like we don't. So often things get so messed up in, in the world because we ask the wrong questions. Like just the completely wrong question is being asked.
I completely agree. I have a similar story like that. It was in that pre-law program I was in. I was, I was, um, we had, like us as students, we had to brief a case and I can't remember what the case was, case title was called, but it had to do with a lawnmower and they're like, it, you know, it was a torts case and it was like, can you start a lawnmower in a garage?
And I honestly couldn't answer that question 'cause one, I don't have grass. I've never, 'cause I live in New Mexico of, a lot of our landscape is non, um, I mean people have grass here, but I'm just saying a lot of it is. Desert. Like desert landscape? Yeah. Desert landscape. There's no, it's, it's, you use a lot of water if you have grass here.
Um, so I never really had grass. I didn't own a lawnmower and I never had a garage. 'cause we always had a carport or we didn't have a covered, we didn't have a garage. So I was like, I don't know. I guess, you know, from TV people start cars in garages, I don't know. Mm-hmm. So they couldn't answer. And the professor was giving me such a hard time and I literally had to break down and say like, this is not part of my everyday experience.
And the class kind of just like, everyone kind of chuckled and even the professor chuckled. 'cause he was saying like, you know, one of your predecessors had a hard time with this case. Um, court case as well because her community lives in a canyon. Like they literally live on a rock so they don't have grass either.
So I think it's. You know, we've heard those type of scenarios for indigenous students, like, you know mm-hmm. Talking about snow. When we think of, um, our Kanaka relatives in Hawaii, like they don't, you know, the, the, the closest snow they have is on Monica. Um, but they don't have it in their everyday lives, so.
Mm-hmm. That's gonna really be hard for them to answer.
Well, and, and even, um, you know, in, in the, going from New England to California, I grew up in New England where there's snow and there's fireflies in the summertime. Mm. California, people be like, what are you talking about? I'm like, you don't catch fireflies and like, put 'em in a no.
What? Like, you've never seen a firefly, you've never had a snow day. Like it's just you, we don't realize how. Uh, individualized our lives are even when it occurs that people are coming from the same culture or speak the same language, let alone when there's so many layers that we have no idea, we have no idea about.
Yeah, I agree.
So, so now that you are, are in this program and you've already made the impact that you have, and you, you see your calling, like where are you excited to focus as you go forward? And if you don't know, that's also of course okay, but like, what are you most fired up about to, to continue making an impact towards?
Um, so I will be finishing this upcoming year, and I think that's where a lot of my focus is. It's been mm-hmm. It's been challenging. Um, and I would say challenging mostly from my, like how would you say? Like, there's this idea of imposter syndrome, right? Yeah. Like, I've struggled. Immensely with imposter syndrome throughout my whole career, my whole educational career.
And I will think it, I think it, it was at its worst in the dissertation writing phase. And I think it hit me more when my father had passed. Mm-hmm. You know, I just got in my own head and I really had to work hard on overcoming imposter syndrome and just know that this is where I need to be and I'm more than capable of finishing and I am gonna finish.
And, um, it's okay to not have your next steps lined up, you know? Mm-hmm. But to be open to endless possibilities. And I think, you know, with having a PhD, I honestly. I didn't realize how many possibilities are out there for individuals with PhDs, much less women or women of color, or indigenous women.
Mm-hmm. And I am excited to be open to what's coming up next, but I also believe a lot in planning and manifesting. One of my good friends, Dr. Doreen Bird, I wanna give her a shout out. She's always talked about manifesting. And she really got me onto like, how do you manifest? Right? Like, what is it that you want?
What is it that inspires you? What is it that you need? And she really encouraged me to pick up manifesting as a daily, as a daily or weekly thing. Mm-hmm. And so right now it's like, how can I work with my coach in manifesting because I feel like I, I have so many things I wanna do that I could feel all over the place.
And I feel like I just need that coach to help me kind of pull that out of me a little bit. Me too. That's why I have a coach. So, um, in finishing, I don't, you know, I wanna be very focused at the last tail end of the dissertation. I want to be prepared for what's next and, you know, working with a coach will help me get out of my own head in a sense, but also create better focus.
And then, but I'm also really like, excited that I even get to do that. Right? Yeah. Because I know not everyone, like I never did believe in, I didn't even know what a coach was or what coaches did. And like I said, it wasn't till like I talked to some of my network where they were like, oh, so and so is a coach and I actually work with them.
And I was like, this is what coaching does. Right. So for me, manifesting, finishing the PhD. Um, potentially becoming involved in some type of way with my own tribe again. And one of my blue sky thoughts, or one of my manifestations is to create, um, a re um, a research policy office for my tribes, um, to implement like a tribal IRB for my Pueblo, um, to potentially have my own consulting firm for indigenous education and research.
Um, to, I mean, yes to all these
things.
Let's do it to, to, um, you know, to be in the classroom as a professor. Mm-hmm. To be, you know, potentially a tribal college president. Um, you know, all of these things to write a book at some point in time. Um, so there's a lot of things I wanna do with, with, with my path still.
And there's a lot of, you know, I wanna travel, you know, I've, I've got a little chance to travel, but I wanna travel some more, um, you know, and visit some of my, my friends that I've made from indigenous communities and eat like indigenous foods and, you know, yeah, I wanna sew like some of our traditional clothing more.
And this past, during the pandemic became a aspiring farmer.
Um, you know, I have a little garden outside of my house, but I wanna have a bigger plot of land to grow more, more different indigenous youths. So I think there's just so much limitless possibilities I wanna do. And, um, but I think with a coach, I know I can. Figure out how to do all this and align it all together somehow.
'cause it all feeds into each other.
Yeah.
So I just think, um, you know, the whole idea of manifesting and, and gratitude practice really does inspire you to keep, to keep going, especially in times where self-doubt kicks in. Mm-hmm. And right now, um, I will say it's been really pretty heavy because of the pandemic.
I've had a lot of, um, people pass during this time. And, you know, I've had two uncle or you know, two uncles and one aunt who passed because of COVID and just know that they have always encouraged my path. And one of my uncles, you know, told me I was the smartest person he knew and I, you know, and he's just this macho guy.
He was this macho guy. So for him to be like. I love you niece. You're the smartest person I know. And I would look to you for advice. It made me feel like I can't give up, even though it feels heavy right now. Mm-hmm. I can't give up. I have to keep going. And you know, in my way I'm gonna take as much people with me on my journey.
I'm gonna encourage people because the thing is, is like I don't wanna be the only indigenous woman in the room. Like I want more indigenous. Yeah. Women and people in the room with me,
like, you know? Yeah. I mean, usually I ask people what they think meaning a powerful lady means, but I think you just answered it for all of us.
Like everything you just said to me is like what it means to be powerful, right? To take what you've got and run with it and to to be a stand that other people like you join you and to. Also give yourself grace because being powerful is exhausting sometimes. Mm-hmm. You know, like I love that when I asked you what's next?
You're like, I just gotta get this dissertation done. And I'm like, yes. You know, like get getting your PhD is not, is no joke. It's no joke. Which is why once you have it, you get to just like take a vacation for crying out loud if you want to because it's so much, especially somebody like you that has so many layers of what you're committed to and thinking about and, and you know, all the stuff that you're holding up at at any one time.
So, well, since I can't ask you that question 'cause you already answered it, then I'm gonna ask you, where do you put yourself on the Powerful Lady Scale? You know, we ask every guest and we say, zero would be an average everyday human and 10 would be the most powerful lady you could imagine. Where would you put yourself today and where do you put yourself on average?
Oh gosh, that's a really hard question. Um, today, you know, having shared my narrative with you and my story. Mm-hmm. So thank you for holding space for me. My pleasure. I would say I feel like a ton because I have to remind myself of where it all started and how I got here. So I definitely feel this high right now of a 10 and like, wow, Daphne, this is where you're at and mm-hmm.
You got it. You're almost there. Don't give up. On an average, I would say sometimes it fluctuates between like a five and an eight. Mm-hmm. Um, because you know, as women we take on so much different things, um, within our families, within our relationships, within our friendships, and I just feel like, you know.
Like when my mom would say like, there's never enough hours in the day. I feel like that. 'cause I'm just like, okay, I'm, I'm off work. I have a little bit of time to write, I still gotta clean. Um, I love doing Zumba. So Zumba is like my outlet. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and so I'm just like trying to hold it all together.
So I think sometimes, you know, before Zumba it's like a five, but after Zumba it's like a eight.
Well, and being someone who appreciates statistics, I think I'll have to at some point turn over all the data of what every powerful it is, how they've answered that question. 'cause I'm sure it's very fascinating on a statistical level. Um, you know, so for everyone who is super impressed with you and what you're creating and causing in the world, how can they reach out to you, support you, follow you, be it contribution to you?
Yeah, so I'm on, um, social. I'm actually on, um, Instagram at DAF Little Bear, um, at DAF Little Bear. So it's D-A-P-H-L-I-L-B-E-A-R and I'm also on Twitter with the same handle at, um, DAF Little Bear as well. Um, I will say that I am trying to organize my social media better. I'm not, I haven't been the best in the past couple years, but, um, you know, you can follow me there.
I actually will probably end up creating like, um, I guess a public profile or business page in the future. So if you wanna follow my journey, I'm there. I'm always posting resources, um, personal stories, um, how allies can get involved in indigenous movements or bipoc movements. So you can reach out to me there on Twitter and um,
Instagram.
Perfect. Um, well, I'll give you one more, a little more space. Anything that you wanna share with the people listening. Um, yeah. What, what do you wanna leave everyone with today?
Oh,
gosh. Um,
I guess, you know, um, get involved, you know, even, even if you've known nothing about indigenous people or, you know, just get involved.
And it starts with following an Instagram account. It starts with signing up for a newsletter from a native organization, you know, um, just get involved in community support, um, local indigenous communities. Um, you can even look up, um, the ancestral land that you're living on of indigenous people, you know?
Um, you can Google like Native land. Um. Or even land acknowledgements, and it'll help pull up a Indian search of, you know, what indigenous communities around you and start there. Support the local indigenous community, whether the entrepreneurs, the, you know, um, just get involved in community. That's always my message.
I think once you're involved in community, it, it just becomes this very, like different sources of information. Um, you can support entrepreneurs, small businesses, and to be a better ally overall to each other. And, you know, once you start showing up indigenous people notice it, and then they'll start like being like, Hey, we want to invite you here or invite you there, or can we collaborate in some way?
But I, I think just getting involved in local and local events is good.
I love that. Well, thank you so much for being a Yes to me, to the Powerway podcast and for sharing your story with everyone listening. Um, you are a powerful lady and I'm so excited that I got to talk to you today.
Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
Thank you for listening to today's episode, all of the links to connect with Daphne, earn our show notes@thepowerfulladies.com slash podcast. There you can also leave comments and ask questions about this episode. Want more powerful ladies, come follow us on Instagram at Powerful Ladies. There are some free downloads to start feeling more powerful today, and we encourage you to subscribe to this podcast and leave us a five star rating name review so we can find more listeners like you and those who would be excited to hear about these stories.
If you'd like to connect directly with me, please visit kara duffy.com or follow me on Instagram at Kara Duffy. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Until then, and we're taking on being powerful in your life, go be awesome and up to something you love.
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Instagram: @daphlilbear
Twitter: @daphlilbear
LinkedIn: /daphne-littlebear
Email: DLittlebear@aihec.org
Created and hosted by Kara Duffy
Audio Engineering & Editing by Jordan Duffy
Production by Amanda Kass
Graphic design by Anna Olinova
Music by Joakim Karud
