Episode 57: Why We Need Rituals in a Rational World | Sasha Sagan | Author of For Small Creatures Such as We
Sasha Sagan is a writer, speaker, and author of For Small Creatures Such as We, a book that explores the beauty of science, the traditions we create, and the rituals that give life meaning. Inspired by her parents, Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan, Sasha brings a thoughtful perspective on curiosity, skepticism, and how science can deepen our sense of wonder. She shares the story of writing her book, the role of community in sustaining traditions, and why embracing change is essential to a meaningful life. From cosmic events to everyday celebrations, Sasha invites us to look closer at the world around us and create rituals that connect us to each other. Her insights bridge the gap between science and spirituality, offering a fresh way to see magic in the universe without abandoning reason.
“The fact that anything works out is amazing! If you believe that everything was always going to happen then falling in love, or running into your old friend, then it’s inevitable. If it’s wild chaos, then when things work out it’s more amazing & more beautiful.”
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For Small Creatures Such As We
Good Reads
Carl Sagan
Astronomer
Ann Druyan (dra-nn)
The Cosmos
Theism
The Maccabees
Skepticism
Cynicism
Zorian
The Scientific Method
Vegas
Mariah Carey
Joe Rogan
Brian Green
Superforecaster (the book)
The Library of Congress
The Cut
Suburban Nation
Truman Show
Brooklyn
Bergen County New Jersey
Bowling Alone (the book)
VFW
Rotary
Spiritual Leadership (the book)
The Cosmos on Nat Geo
She-Ra
Jem & the Holograms
The Babysitters Club
The Greek Chorus
Beyonce
The Berlin Wall
Martha Stewart
Discipline Equals Freedom book
Jocko Willink
The One Thing book -
Follow along using the Transcript
Chapters
00:00 Meet Sasha Sagan
04:15 Growing Up with Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan
09:40 The Inspiration Behind For Small Creatures Such as We
14:20 How Science and Ritual Can Coexist
19:15 Creating Traditions in a Secular Household
24:40 Finding Beauty in Cosmic and Everyday Events
30:05 Why Change Is Inevitable and Necessary
35:20 The Power of Curiosity and Continuous Learning
40:50 Building and Sustaining Community from Afar
45:35 Favorite Cultural References and Personal Heroes
50:10 How to Bring More Wonder into Your Daily Life
55:25 Resources and Recommendations from Sasha
And the fact that anything works out is amazing and it's so if you believe that everything was always gonna happen, then falling in love or running into your old friend or any of that stuff, it's this is inevitable. But if it's just wild chaos, then when things work out, it's really should be more beautiful.
That's Sasha Sagan and this is The Powerful Ladies podcast.
Hey guys, I'm your host, Kara Duffy, and this is The Powerful Ladies Podcast where I invite my favorite humans, the awesome, the up to something and the extraordinary to come and share their story. I hope that you'll be left, entertained, inspired, and moved to take action towards living your most powerful life.
Guys, the episode you're about to hear is awesome, and it's an example of what can happen when you play big. After finishing and loving Sasha Sagan's book. For small creatures, such as We, I immediately thought she needs to be on this podcast. I wanted to talk more about the book. I wanna have a conversation with this person to whom I saw so many similarities to myself, and I wanted to bring this important conversation about community, rituals, science, and religion.
To all of you, I did just what I tell my coach coaching clients to do. I went online, I found your email and emailed her about why I love the book, the impact it had on me, and why she would be a great guest. To my surprise and delight, she was a yes. And on this episode we get to talk about her story, why her book matters, the importance of curiosity and learning, and having a strong friend squad, no matter how far apart you may be today.
All that and so much more coming up. But first, if you're interested in discovering what possibilities and businesses are available for you to create and to live your most fulfilling life, please visit the powerful ladies.com/coaching and sign up for a free coaching consultation with me. There is no reason to wait another day to not be living your best life.
When you instead could be running at full speed towards your wildest dreams today,
I am so excited that to have you tonight. Everyone that's listening, we are in the proud presence of Sasha Sagan who wrote for creatures such as We Rituals for Finding meaning in our Unlikely World. Welcome. Thank you so much. I'm so delighted to be here. I read this book and I was telling this story on Instagram earlier that I love books like Me Too a lot.
Same like when at the end of your book when you said how sad you are about all the books you know, you'll never read. I was like, someone gets me, it tortures
me every day. Like it's impossible, but. I think it's important to try.
I agree. So last year with everything going on with the Powerful Ladies 2.0 and launching the coaching business full-time, it was wild.
And it's the first year since I've been recording all of the books. I read in Good Reads on the app since 2004. It was the first year I blew it on my reading goal. And of all the things that I totally messed up on last year, that's the one that's stuck with me. Oh yeah. That feeling. How, what was your goal and
how many did you read?
I think my goal was 25 or 35, and I think I read like 16. That's still really good. Yes, thank you. It was good, but I was still like the black mark. So this year I really committed to dialing down and being like, I am not able to happen again. Besides the fact that there are so many books I want to read.
I'm like, no this matters to me and I need to be on top of my game for, half the books I read are about. Business and mindset and all those other things that I need to be a great coach. And so the first book that I started and finished this year was yours. Oh, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome.
But, and thank you for writing it. Everything I wrote in the email I sent to you was true. Like I read it and I was like, oh,
what a great book to start the year with. Thank you so much. That's so kind.
Yeah. So how about you just give a little snapshot of who's listening, like what the book is and where it came from?
It's a combination of a few genres, I guess it's part memoir and it's part social history. It's the elements that are about me are about my life growing up. My dad was the astronomer and educator, Carl Sagan. And he and my mom writer and producer Adrianne, wrote dozens of books and essays.
And the original 1980s season of the television show Cosmos Together. And really taught me to celebrate. And have, this kind of joyful wonder and awe for the for the world as revealed and the universe as revealed by science. And so a lot of it is about that and about growing up like that.
And also about what do you do when your worldview is scientific opposed to religious and you lose someone. 'cause my dad died when I was 14. So those are the elements that are very personal. And then the elements that are more general, more global are about our celebrations and our rituals and the ways in which we process change and mark time and do all the things that human beings do.
And the through lines between cultures and time and place that are remarkably similar in, in what we do.
It hit all of my favorite topics. Oh. Because my undergrad was in like urban anthropology and why people are the way they are, so Oh wow. Love all of that stuff. And then it hit on despite it being a scientific, not spiritual, it really connected the spiritual to the scientific, which I love.
And the fact that you were telling these like just sweet stories that are very, I think all humans can relate to no matter where they come from. Like I will never forget the a, b, C song piece. Oh. Of you. Thank you. No, but really it was like such a small I don't think enough people, we talk about being present so much.
Yes. And gratitude. Yes. And all this stuff right now that is, could be very spiritually based and so many people are not putting it into practice. And the fact that you point out like these little ways that you can put it into practice in every day. That doesn't need to make it significant.
And this idea, spiritual is, I struggle with this word so much because of course it comes from theism and it comes from like the idea of a spirit and all these elements that are really linked, to, to a theistic worldview, which I don't have, but I also don't have a secular word that invokes the same sense of like the hair on the back of your neck standing up and the feeling of being connected to the universe and to one another.
And that sense of you're. You're tiny in the vastness, but you're here right now and you can just, you feel it from your heads to your toes. And I don't know, maybe someday the meaning will, we will take on this other meaning or we'll find another word for it. But in until then I feel like there, spirituality and science are not necessarily in conflict, but rather that science is a so a great source of this kind of feeling.
Yes. And I don't think we give it enough credit. Yes. There's so many there are so many ways in which the universe is awesome. Yes. And I'm like, why aren't we celebrating more of that in addition to whatever else you may believe? I would argue that
when we peel back the specific cultural theological mythological, exterior of so many of our rituals and celebrations and practices underneath, there is a kernel of a real scientific event that is awe-inspiring. Yes. And holidays fall around the same time of year and their histories are linked so deeply to the solstice. Equinoxes and the changing of the season, which are totally scientific and provable and real.
And then we have stuff like, ceremonies for when a baby is born coming of age, rituals funerals, these are biological events, and it's so easy to lose sight of that and get bogged down in the details of how we mark these things and what like the stories we tell ourselves of why we do it when, what's so astonishing is that we're all doing the same thing and it's scientific, there is a real.
Explanation in a way we can study it and still have that sense of awe and wonder about it. And I think that so
many people who are searching for what they do believe in or find truth in, there's so many options, right? If you wanted to choose, and I think sometimes the idea of choosing a scientific path.
Makes people feel that there won't be celebrations. And there won't be moments. And for you to tie it back to the history of all religions, were scientific events or universal events, natural phenomena, right? Like you, you don't need to give up celebration if you're choosing to give up a religious, spiritual belief system.
Absolutely.
And I think that, it doesn't. Real. If like you live in a place where in December it is cold and dark and it gets it like, the days are really short, the need for creating light and celebration and like this is really hard right now, but how about we make things light up and have a party and make delicious food and give each other presents and we might feel a lot better.
And it's that doesn't require like total faith about the version birth or about the Maccabees or whatever the history, behind the explanation is for why the specific things are happening. And I think, I talk a lot about separating skepticism from cynicism. And I think a lot of people who maybe grew up with faith or felt that it was imposed on them.
When they get to a point where they let go of it, I think, okay, I don't want anything to do with any of that 'cause it was not working for me. But I think there's a way to honor some traditions and honor your ancestors without being bound by their theology.
One of the things that I've discovered in my, wherever I'm at in my arc of my story is I was getting a lot of inspiration from quotes from Rumi or Buddha Yeah.
Or somebody else. And I had totally turned my back on ever accepting any quotes that came from the Christian religion. Because I was like I don't know how I feel about this one. It gave me a bad taste in my mouth and I sat back and I'm like, why? If these are quotes from humans of some kind and they all have some wisdom value to them.
It would be totally ridiculous to turn my back on the one that was my family's tradition. Like totally, when I had that epiphany, I was like, I'm an idiot. This is like, why not?
But the pendulum has to swing with anything. It's like when you feel something is too far in one direction for you, before you can get to the middle place, you have to go all the way in the other direction, at least for a little while, and then you kinda get to a point where you're like, I like this, these elements of it.
But when it's something that like, you don't, if it's like raan tradition or something you're not like mad about it, so you're like, sure, like this works, this sounds great. I love it. If it's not something that you have thought was imposed on you.
The other thing that I loved when you said, we were in your book, you're going into so much detail about the scientific side of what you can create.
It made me think of how there's a lot of conversation today about how religion isn't it removes the relationship of the original source of the person. 'cause religion is all the people who've come between the original concept and today that they've put all their stuff on it. And how if you peel away this stuff other humans have added to it, it's a lot clearer of a message no matter.
Which. Myth book you are aligned with. And I, it, to me, it dawned on me like, oh my gosh. That's what's happening with the climate change discussion.
There's so much getting put on it by all different people with different motives and incentives that like, and fierce Yes. 100%. Like so much of this is a framework to not be afraid and survive.
And I think that's, this is the thing, and I talk about this a lot, but my mother always says, there's no refuge from change in the cosmos. And it's change is happening. It's coming. It's not even the idea of being a traditionalist or being is about. Holding on as long as you can, but change is inevitable.
And I think the only question is do we wanna change things for the better or for the worse? We can't avoid that, that they're gonna change. And so something like climate change, when we look at the situation and say, okay, the way we've been doing things, it's not gonna go on forever in either direction, right?
It we, it's gonna come to a screeching halt in some way or another. And we have to ask ourselves what kind of change do we wanna make? And because it is not right, we cannot go back to, the 1950s or, a thousand years ago or beyond. It's just we, once we accept that, I think there's so much else that will be a little easier in life.
But it, we have, we're time traveling one second at a time into the future. Yes.
And I think as well, when we really look at the. Magnitude of the fact that even just the three of us, you, Jordan, and I sitting here right now, the chances of that happening in this moment, in this way, like you start celebrating everything to a different level,
right?
This is the thing. People often say, oh everything happens for a reason, as a reassurance. And to me, first of all, I don't believe that's true because my position is I reserve belief without evidence, and I don't have any evidence to suggest that. I think what's more likely is that things happen and then we retroactively reverse engineer a a reason, but if it's all random chaos and nothing is preordained and destiny is not real, then the fact that anything works out is amazing. And it's so if you, yes, if you believe that everything was always gonna happen, then falling in love or running into your old friend or any of that stuff, it's this is inevitable.
Yeah. But if it's just all. Just wild, chaos. Then when things work out, it's really should be more amazing. And it's more beautiful. Yes. 'cause
You really see the what is the picture that the shell makes and the flowers, the scientific, oh, I blowing it. What is this called?
Oh,
A fractal.
Yes. Like even the randomness. Yeah. That things do have these beautiful patterns and there are these cycles. You're like, what are the chances that all of this would work out and c, create all this and be amazing. How lucky. Yeah. How lucky. Yes.
And how and how beautiful that we have, evolved brains that can perceive them perceive this to understand our, even in the very small ways in which we are just starting to grasp our place in everything and in a few more century or a few more millennia, it's going to seem oh, can you believe it in 2 20 20? They thought they knew what was going on, those poor fools.
But we're getting a little bit of a glimpse. And that's amazing that we've figured anything out at all. And the ways that we have is because, we being able to use something like the scientific method to test what can stand up to scrutiny and see where the evidence leads rather than putting our wishes and fears and hopes on it.
Which of course everyone does in different ways, but using this framework to try to separate what we hope or think from what there's evidence for, has revealed much more astonishing, much more breathtaking ideas and perspectives than anything we've had before.
Completely.
We went out to Vegas this past weekend. Oh fun. Yes. We were seeing a, the Mariah Carey concert. Oh, wow. How was that? It was actually fabulous. Oh,
yeah.
I would imagine
if you were like, meh, I would've been shocked.
I had low expectations because I heard all these rumors. Oh. And it was on Jesse, my boyfriend's bucket list.
Oh, wow. Throwing him under the bus on that bus. Yeah. He's always dragging me to Mariah carrying out. Yeah. One of those. Yeah. And so we drove out and on the way, we listened to a Joe Rogan episode that had Brian Green. Oh, yeah. On it. Yeah. Okay. He's amazing. Yes. And the conversation they had, I was like, they're having the same conversation we're gonna have.
Oh, really? No, they totally got, there was more that, more scientific things that he went into. Yeah. But they ended up on the concept of. The, just the rare chance Yes. That all of this works. Yes. Because Joe is asking are there really, other like aliens out there listening to us right now and he's do you know the chances of that happening?
And the fact that we've only been sending out radio waves for Right. Since the thirties. Yeah. And the fact that like Seti from like your father. Yes. That hasn't been that long. So based on light years and all the speeds of everything, do you know how long it's gonna take them to get it?
And like, how long would it take them to come back if they're
even interested? Mean we might be so like out of the way, like in the sticks. Yeah. That they're like, Ugh, let's not even bother.
Yeah. They're like Eddie species that could hear us and understand us would be so far ahead of us, that we would look like ants.
Yes. No one cares about us. If there is anyone. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. He'd be like people, reporting on such. Normal, boring things that they wouldn't bother.
Yeah.
And there was a little bit of me that was sad because I really feel like the world is awesome, but at the same time I was like, they
just got
to know
us.
There's so many
good stories here. I really feel like we just put our best foot forward and we could really knock their socks off.
Yeah. But essentially be like dogs trying to impress Yes. Which humans, which they do on a daily basis. Daily. Proud dog owner of two. Yeah. And I'm quite sure that they are part human, so Yes.
Yeah.
That's what they'll say. Whatever the species is. They're some of them are so smart. They're almost, they don't think of them as humans. They're much smarter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. And I think that this question of is there life elsewhere in the universe?
Which is such a, it was a question that my dad, was fascinated by and really wanted to know the answer. And people would say to him like what do you think? And he would say I don't have any evidence, so I don't know. And they would be like, yeah, but what does your, like gut tell you?
And he would say I try not to use my gut for this because it's not a good tool for figuring this out. I try to use my head and the other, that sort of fits in with this other theme of this is something my parents really instilled in me, which is like the tolerance for ambiguity.
And like when there's not evidence or there's not enough evidence leaving open. A question until there's more information and the idea that sometimes we don't know, and that's okay. And that's better to admit that to ourselves than to force an answer because it's so uncomfortable and it is often to not know.
And this strangely ties into what I do on a daily basis with clients because so often they have said no so many times or gotten themselves into a box where they don't even give themselves the possibility to say what if, right? And there's so you're completely cutting off curiosity and learning and the discovery process and truly like going down the path of can we do this?
Is it possible? And to me, that is like the most fun space to be in because Yeah, truly, like anything really is possible until it doesn't work well. And also
it's like this, the very the largest philosophical questions fit and just put the daily, like the work email is not it's not gonna go Okay, whatever that is.
Like that idea of we don't know yet. And we just have to sit here and order. But I think with big philosophical questions and those daily, sources of anxiety, it's our fear and, that things will go very badly. That is, makes it so that we just put an answer in there to pro, we think we're protecting ourselves or we're so worried that it won't go well, that we convince ourselves it's absolutely going to be wonderful no matter what.
And either way, I think we do ourselves a disservice because we're so bad at predicting what act life is always, the, what you least expect and it's just impossible. We're terrible at predicting this kind of thing. The stuff that's out of our hands. There's a
book out there called Super Forecaster.
Oh, and like how mostly for business and yeah. Like how can you really plan what's gonna happen and what the trends are gonna be and. When I read the book, I, what I got out of it was that the people who are super forecasters, yes. They might be so niched into an area where they just know more than other people, so they're ahead of the curve.
But then the other people are the ones that are really like scanning everything so they can keep like adjusting and adjust. It's like it's sailing a boat instead of taking a train. And I'm like, we're not giving anyone credit for pivoting or adjusting. Yeah. Like, how did they get there? I don't know.
They just kept adjusting the whole
way. And there are elements that have become self-fulfilling prophecy. That is Sure. That does happen too. But yeah, it is, I mean that, see that idea of. Questioning and, asking questions and being willing to find out what the answer is either way and and, from early childhood, we, it comes so naturally to us to ask questions. And some, unfortunately, for many people, at some point they, they get totally discouraged with a lot of that's just how it is. Or, 'cause I said so talk. Yeah. And the, it's just the curiosity goes away.
It breaks my heart to see.
Or just not even to see, but just to know that we crush people into not being that spark that you are when you're a kid. Like how as humans, can we be okay with doing that to people?
I know. I know. And if it's 'cause we're afraid. 'cause we're afraid to say we don't know it. 'cause we're afraid that, lose.
Like I think sometimes people feel like if they say to their kids like, ah, that's a really good question. I have no idea. They'll lose their like authority, over them rather than giving the kids some confidence and teaching them that nobody has all the answers. And anybody who tries to say they do is up to no good.
I really think Yes. And it's just impossible yeah. And it's ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And I think that we have, a really. Weird relationship with questioning, and I just think that it's, if something can't stand up to scrutiny, it's not. The responsibility of the questioner to preserve the institution or belief or tradition, whatever it is.
It's the responsibility of whatever the longstanding institution is to be able to stand up to questioning. Yes. And if you scrutiny is a problem, that's not because. People shouldn't ask questions.
And most of history would show us, whenever people stopped asking questions, shit hit the fan.
Yeah. It did not go well. No. Yeah.
And Whenev, and it's a tell. It's a tell. If you can't, if you don't want questions asked, it's because you're hiding something. If you're like, yeah, let's talk about it. It's be, and I have to say in, I have had many people in my life and have many people in my life who are devoutly religious.
And I think that the people who are the truest believers are not threatened by these conversations and not threatened by me not believing or other people in their lives. Yes. Not believe me. It's when you, it's when you cannot allow the thought of doubt to creep in. It's because you yourself don't want your doubt inflamed by other people's questions.
If you're totally good with where you're at, you don't mind. I really think you don't mind. And not just about like religion, but any philosophical, political, family history, you name it. Yes. Exactly. Anything, yeah. I
the lack of being honest about whatever it is and you see it and how family habits cycle through, like when you're not honest about what happened or, addiction problems people had or a secret secrets like there, that is one of the secrets in gossip are probably the two worst things that we can do as an individual, a family, a community, keep going, right?
'cause the secrets become lies. Like it just keeps going and suddenly your reality is not. It's not based on truth,
and also then all your energy goes into preserving the facade. Rather than actually making things closer to how they should be or how you want them to be. Yeah. A hundred percent.
Good.
I'm glad we solved
that.
Get a little star on this book. Yeah.
Okay, good. We check that right off
the list. So obviously both of your parents have been prolific writers. Did you always plan to be a writer in regards to books or were you like, how did
this book happen? It's I did not plan to be a writer like this.
I used to be a television producer, which I really liked and I am very extroverted. And so sometimes I'm like, that was maybe a better fit because I was around people more. And then, I was I wanted to maybe do screenwriting and tried my hand at that a little bit and wasn't that good at it.
And, but what happened was like, around. And I guess in 2013 all my parents' papers went into the Library of Congress, which was this enormous honor and this incredibly special thing. And there was like an event to celebrate it. And I had, we went down to Washington, DC and my family and all these people who had worked with my dad.
He died in 1996, so this is many years later. And I was like, I had this idea that the paper is going, it would be like this, not in its supernatural way, but this like extension. He was gonna live a little longer. 'Cause it was like he was gonna be in the Library of Congress, like all his stuff.
And it was like, oh this is there will be future generations who see Yeah, his stuff. And in this way he'll live a little longer. And I, we went to the thing and it was like all these. People who like had been his grad students when I was a kid and now were middle aged and like all these videos of him young.
And it was like the antithesis of what I expected. I thought it was gonna be like this celebration of this, like eternal life. And it was like being in like a mausoleum and it was like of the coming face to face with mortality. Rather than the antithesis. And after that, I just like hysterically cried the whole time, made a scene and for sure lots of people were like, she needs help.
But it was really emotional for me. Yeah. And after that it was I had the burning sense of I have something as I, I need to write about. And it was like, I'm, there's an essay in here. I gotta get it out. If anybody else is interested, great. But it has to like, come out of me.
That sounds really graphic, it just felt like very like I had to get it down on paper. So I wrote that a friend helped me out and it ended up being published in the Cut. And a lot of it was about how you, how do you deal with mortality when you don't have religion? And how do you deal with grief when you don't have religion?
And the reaction to it. Gave me the idea that was a, this is a question that a lot of people have, and this is an area of conversation that I think, as the culture is getting a little bit more secular, although it's always hard to tell. 'cause who knows who was secular a thousand years ago and just didn't dare breathe a word of it to anyone, that and, raising children and having weddings and doing all these things we have to reckon with what we actually believe.
So anyways, so I wrote this essay and then I, there was a sense of okay, maybe there's more on this topic, but I didn't, I'm like a little bit of a morbid person, but I didn't wanna write only about death and mourning and grieving. And so I thought, I probably, I also wanna write about parties.
No I, but like the cell, all these elements of life on this planet that have traditionally, or at least for the last. Few millennia, the infrastructure has been religion, but there's still, it's still stuff that we need to do and to face and to enjoy. Even if we don't have the faith.
Yeah. It's the pleasures of being
human Exactly. And being in community
and it's so much the experience of life on this particular planet. That's something that I really came to realize as researching it. The timing of things, solstice is, and equinoxes and all these rituals that are tied to the phases of the moon.
And like every, anything that has to do with sunrise and sunset, these are. Parts of the, the astronomy of this planet with this particular orbit and going around this particular star at this particular rate. And I think that this idea as we're starting to, as a species, think about if we're gonna go somewhere else, I think it's really interesting to think about what the things we do.
'cause we've been here all this time,
so one of the most spiritual experiences I've had was going to Oregon and seeing the eclipse.
Oh
yeah. And like we were at this big festival for it and I didn't expect it to be as amazing as it was.
Yeah.
It was so incredible. We're actually going to Argentina this December to see the next one.
Oh, awesome. Yeah. But the thing that blew my mind after I saw this and I was like, whoa, was hearing that you'd have to go to earth? To there would be eclipse tourism. Oh. 'cause it's the only place we know of based on the distances between the moon, the sun, and our planet, and the shapes of them and the sizes where it can happen.
Wow. And I was like, this just made it a hundred times
cooler than it was before. That's amazing. I never thought of that before. And also the idea that maybe elsewhere, there's other sort of optical illusions that are so evocative that, there's so many, the eclipses in particular we're for so much of history, this harbinger of doom or this sign because we're so tortured by our inability to predict the future that we just grasped at anything.
And like still now, like the calendar, the Christian calendar is designed so that Easter can never fall on an eclipse.
Fact check guys, Sasha followed up with an email after, and she wants to make sure that, the calendar is designed so that there's never a solar eclipse on Easter. Small clarification, but she's cannot get the facts wrong here.
Really?
Yes. Because it's like the first I, I believe it's the first. New Moon or Full Moon after the Equinox, but it's designed be, and we have these emo deep, I'll have to just double check. I don't want wrong about that. We'll edit this out if I'm wrong. But we have these deep emotional.
Connections that we have, it's projected on these astronomical events, and it's just fascinating the way that it's so central to our
experience here. Yes. And I think too, because there is so much predictability that we can find in nature and the universe and astronomy, that we want to predict everything with it.
Our lives depended on it. Still do, right? Yes, exactly. But for so much of history, when people, all the springtime celebrations are at the root because. We didn't always know we were gonna make it through the winter. Yeah. And like it was really scary and people didn't survive, yeah. And it's like all of that stuff. And then the more we were able to work out, like when the rains were coming or when the, fruits and vegetables were gonna come, like the more we were able to flourish. And so it became a survival mechanism. And we are, but we're addicted. Yes. We're addicted to trying to predict the future.
Yes. I think that's also why I'm addicted to learning. I'm like, what else can I do? Yes. This is, I think it's fun personally. Absolutely. I agree too. Like why not? I'm going through all, I made so many things I wanted to talk about. I was like, this is all exciting. And then you grew up in New York?
Yes. We're also, yes. North Easterners. Oh, where are you from?
Yes.
I consider Boston Home. Oh, that's where I live now. That's what I was gonna hope we could take a bridge to. We were born in New Jersey. We've lived in upstate New York. We've lived in like 11 different states, I think, as a family.
Wow.
Yeah. But going from New York and Boston, there's obviously you have to do certain things because of the weather. Oh yeah. There's no way around it.
Yes. And so I grew up in upstate New York and Ithaca. I lived most of my adult life in New York City, and then a co four years ago or so, we moved to Boston.
And it's I think that when you live in a place where the weather changes in, in a really extreme way. It just, it makes it so clear why the holidays and festivals are the way they are because of course, for a lot of the world that. Christian, were European powers that were Christian.
Yeah. Obviously through imperialism and colonialism their rituals and their traditions became, were in many cases forced on people who lived in totally different climates. Were in the opposite hemisphere where the timing makes no sense. It's like it. And I think that there's all sorts of things like that where, you know, if you're celebrating Christmas in New Zealand, it's just a totally different experience than if you're doing it in Edinburgh. But I think that, that when we track back the timing and the themes make sense. How are you enjoying Boston? I love it. It's great. I have a little girl and it's a really great. Great town for a kid. And, we love like the aquarium Yes.
And the MFA and like the Boston Commons. And it is really special place. And part of me also really misses New York City.
Yeah. If you have to choose, you shouldn't have to choose between the two. That's true. And it's nice that they are, you can at least get to them easily. Oh yes,
absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I get to go down to the city frequently, thankfully. Yeah.
Living here now, I do miss being in, whether it's New York or Boston, but in that just northeast coast area where there's such a, I don't know, it's like there's such a cultural attachment to learning and discussion and like being engaged and like having diversity in what you're doing and up to, and exploring that.
Sometimes I'm like, what? Is that? Part of my DNA at this point, or like what's missing? Like how do I find it here? And of course there are amazing museums. Yes. In California there's lots of people up to cool things. Yes. All the time. But I think there's a different level of having discussions on a regular basis with strangers.
Yes. That I am really miss.
You know what? It's a couple of things. One is I think that when, people drive everywhere. You don't cross paths with as many different people as you do when you use public transportation and walk. Yes. And so you end up meeting people or you just have a shared comradery with the strangers around you because you're.
Together. In a way that is different if you're, everyone's in their own car. I also think that sometimes in places like Los Angeles where a lot of people work in a one particular industry, though remain nameless. No. Then it's just everyone's sort. It's, obviously, and there people do lots of things in Los Angeles, and I don't wanna make it sound like it's just like a company town.
But I feel like in, in other large cities, it's like there's, you go to a party and. People could be doing. Yes. They're at the, maybe in 20 different professions and it's something you never heard of and it's oh, you, oh wow. You're a brain surgeon and you're this, or whatever it is.
Of course people, there are doctors everywhere, but there's a different kind of integration I think professionally. Whereas here it's a little more siloed.
100%. Like dinner parties are one of my favorite things on the whole planet.
Me too. Me too.
And I love I loved when you would plan a dinner party and be like, okay, we're gonna leave a few seats open for these guests that I don't know who are coming.
That someone's bringing. And I can't wait to see like literally who's gonna show up and what they're gonna bring to the table. Literally. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. Literally. And I do agree, like there's a great book, a book that changed my life actually called New Suburban. Oh, what is it about?
It's all about the, how community planning impacts the actual community you're in. So they studied a lot of, like the impact of suburban or No suburban nation, how they, how it impacted the development of suburbs and how it's changed American culture. Wow. Like it's driven like cars and all, so what they did is one of the towns they built is where they filmed a Truman show.
Oh, wow. Where they started bringing things back in that they knew worked. There's a rule that if you can walk to get milk and basic necessities, so it has to be like under half a mile from your house. It's a completely different community. Yes. Than not.
I'm really like, I, so a couple things about me.
One is, I have a driver's license and I can operate a motor vehicle, but it petrifies me. I am not scared of flying. I am not scared of like public speaking heights but like operating a car, I really just avoid it if I can. And because I work from home and I work mostly alone I really need to be in a place where like my errands are walkable and I'm really scared of the isolation of being Yeah.
In a place where you don't. There's not people like around you. And I grew up in like a town, in a house, in a freestanding house in a town. You know what I mean? Yeah. But since I was 17 years old and went to college, like I have been in a building with other people around me. And I don't know if it's like some ancient hunter gatherer tribal thing, but I'm like, this is how we're supposed to be.
Like the idea of just me and my husband and our daughter in a house with no other people around that seems like wildly scary. And it's the shiny Yes, exactly. Exactly. And all work and no play makes such a doll girl. I Same. Yeah. I cannot really envision how that, how I how I would do that. Who knows?
But the suburban thing too, I think is so interesting because. For so much of the last century, the goal Yeah. Was, my, my father was born in 1934 and he was born in Brooklyn. And his parents were, they were financially not in a, they were struggling. And then, over time his father, worked his way up and they could move to New Jersey.
Yeah. And now it's to leave Brooklyn, it's you wanna, if you can afford to stay in Brooklyn, you would, and it's this totally different thing. And this relationship with the suburbs has changed so much, where it's if you can stay in the city, that's so much more desirable for so many people.
And I think it is, in a funny way, a call back to the idea of being in a group
community. Yeah. Our, my, our mother has a very similar story, born in Brooklyn, her raised in New Jersey. And I actually did your dad grow up in Bergen County? Okay. Raw way. Yeah.
So he only, okay, so he was, he went to college when he was like 16.
'cause they used to skip people ahead when they were like really smart. And so he, they moved there when he was like 14. So he only lived there for two years. Two years I think. Yeah.
Yeah. We're from the our family's from the Northern New Jersey part and Bergen County. But even that there, like the way it's designed is a much more sustainable community.
'cause there is walkability, there's trains, there's a yess train center, there's market spread out. Like you're never very far from something that you need versus maybe. The suburbs that were created in the eighties and nineties. Yes. Where you're in the middle and you're like, basically a farm got turned to do a housing development.
Yeah. And you're like, okay, I'll drive an hour to the grocery store, but I have a five bedroom house. And you're like doesn't that up to me? No,
I totally agree. And it's like a five bedroom house is great if you have like grandmothers and aunts and everybody's yeah. Together.
But the, just like a big empty house. And I think the more that we get things delivered and we order things online and we don't even talk to someone on the phone to order them, you could live your whole life with not having contact, real contact with anyone but your immediate family who lives in your house.
And it's just like that. Some people that's probably very appealing, but I don't know. I really crave that sense of community. And I think that's something that. If I were religious, that would be a really easy place to get that. But for those of us who are not we have to really create it for ourselves.
And I think one way to do it is where you live and how you live, but also just like you said, dinner parties, these things that we like, okay, we're gonna have book club, or we're gonna have, these, and sometimes you have to be the ringleader and make it happen. But if you, if somebody's not doing it, it's really easy to lose that part of life.
It's so easy and every, and there's another great book called Bowling Alone
That
talks about how you used to have your bowling league or your whatever the VFW or whatever you would go to, like people were part of organizations outside of their home and work and religion. Yeah.
I wanna say Rotary Club.
Yes. I don't even know what that is, but it sounds like a thing that used to be a thing.
It is. It's businesses. It still exists. Okay. Okay. If you're like in a business, you get to be in Rotary. Oh, okay. Yeah. Fancy, right? Yeah.
So
I just picture
like an old bones,
sorry. Yes. Come on. But there's a real gap in people craving this community and when most of.
The US is I guess that's not accurate. Most of the population does live in a city, but there's a lot of people that don't.
Yes.
And it's not only do you get isolated from a physical perspective, but you get really isolated from a theoretical idea exchange perspective as well. Yes. And unfortunately social media is not helping.
No. Because it just reinforces, it's just reinforcing it.
Yeah. And television too is, where you get your news, all that stuff. And then it's been said a million times, but like the echo chamber. Yes. And it's, and and it's possible no matter where you live to have and of course, but I think that, yeah, there's something about having a, a. Regular place where you're obliged to be. And not that it's really mandatory, but where you like, I should go, unless you're sick or you're traveling or something, you're like, ah I should go to my thing.
Whatever Tuesday. And I think that there's something about that where if you don't believe that it's the should is coming from Mount High. It has to be about what you value and what you know that you're going to get out of it.
There is a quote here recently about how impact is the greatest reward that you can have.
And I'm totally obsessed with the concept of impact and and, but it changes like I read a book that is based in Christianity called Spiritual Leadership.
And my favorite takeaway from it was, if you wake up every morning and ask who can you be of service to your whole day changes? Oh yeah.
And to me it's again, that's an example of it. It's a completely secular concept that why aren't we all talking about this? Absolutely. And this is
something I write about in the book. The thing I admire most about religion, organized religion is that the social pressure to do good works. I really, that is something that I really wish was a bigger part of secular culture. And, volunteering is something that solves a lot of these problems. Yes. You have a sense of purpose, you're moving. It, the world. A millimeter at a time maybe, but closer to the way you want it to be. And you got the comradery and the, yes.
All the warm and fuzzies. Oh, and the, like somebody, group of people to commiserate with or just like high five or whatever, and I think that if, that if that was something that was just a wider, more. But that was just something that like, people were like, oh no, I have volunteering on Wednesday, I gotta go do that.
And I just think that, and I know people want to do that, and I know people, it's just, it's, there's something missing in terms of the way it gets organized and the way that people think about it. And I think that if you're religious and you think that it is mandated by God, then you're like, okay, I gotta really, I gotta show up and do this.
And I think, yeah. If you don't be, like we were talking about, if you don't believe everything is preordained and there's not a rhyme or reason, there's not a safety net that bad guys aren't gonna get their comeuppance and the good guys aren't gonna get their reward and it's just chaos, then it's our responsibility to make things a little bit more just.
And that's one way that you can do that.
100%. 100%. One of the obviously we're on the Powerful Ladies podcast. Yes. And I would love to know what, when you think of powerful ladies, like what do you think of and who do you think of? Oh my God, my mom.
I'm probably, does everyone come on here and talk about their moms?
My mom she really, sometimes I'm just like, I, okay, so somebody else. So she does a lot of things, but one of the things that she does is she writes and produces and Directs Cosmos, which was a show that my parents created together in the eighties. And then she brought back about six years ago.
And now there's a new season coming out right now. I don't know when this is gonna air, but March 9th, the new season premieres on Nat Geo and it's this, she is the. Captain at, of the ship. And she is at this for someone who I'm friends friendly with, who works on the show who, is a, who is not an executive producer or somebody who's, who's a little bit further down the ladder was saying that they were going into a meeting.
And, it was like a really serious meeting with the network or something like that. And this guy was saying like, I was really nervous about X, Y, and Z and she just went in. I don't wanna I don't know what I'm not supposed to be saying about how, the secrets of how the show comes together, but she just went in with just totally fearless and I was like, I can picture exactly what you mean and just this like confidence of I don't know. I don't, she has these moments where I'm just like, wow. And I think for, I mean she is 70 and she is at the top of her game. She is creatively and professionally. And confidence wise, I would say just I, skyrocketing. And it's just amazing because it's also, so for me, I really feel this enormous sense of like relief that we have this idea that if you haven't done what everything you wanna do, by the time you're 30 or 40, or, maybe if you're the new something is the new 50 or whatever, yeah.
But we have this idea that there's a deadline. And she just has amazed me at every turn that like, and she's just extremely, she's just brilliant. And, last night we were at the premiere of the new season and it's, she created it. And a lot of it is a, an ode in a way, subtly to my dad and the work that they created together.
And I just think she just exudes this kind of powerful confidence that I hope maybe I, when I grow up, I hope to
attain. That makes me come to my next question, which I really love looking at, always coming back to, am I making 8-year-old me proud?
Because I
really feel that's a time in a child's life when you know enough.
To see what's possible and have some confidence and still be in that dreaming state. Yes. Without your frontal lobe is more developed. So it's like you're like a mini adult for the one of the first times. Yes. And so I always think if I can make 8-year-old me proud who loved Shera and Gem, the holograms and babysit club, then I'm like, okay, I have won.
Yes. When you think back to 8-year-old, you like what is making 8-year-old you proud right now? Oh my
goodness. I really, this is I'm gonna cry. No, I really, I think just like this idea of being out in the world and like getting to say what you think and people like, my parents were so like eager to hear all my thoughts and feelings about what, but then you go to school and you're like, it's not everybody, not every teacher, not everybody.
When I was eight, I will say I did have a really great third grade teacher named Julie Hurlbut, who I loved. But out in elementary school and not everybody is always so ready to hear all your thoughts and opinions and, I always wanted to like travel and be and I was very lucky and got to a lot as a child, but just have a life where.
Every week or month was not necessarily the same. And there was like some variety and some just new adventure on the corner. And I feel really lucky right now that I think that little 8-year-old Sasha would be excited about that. I
love that. When you look at where you are now living in Boston with your husband and your daughter, and this book has come out what's next and what are you excited to be creating next?
Oh,
I'm really, I'm, I am really excited about, I've, because of the book, I'm getting to go places and give talks and be part of con, conversations that I am really grateful to be a part of. And like I'm, gonna talk at South by Southwest in two weeks and I'm doing this thing in Houston at NASA with my mom and like stuff like that where I just feel like really excited to be in situations where I get to ask.
Get to be asked questions. And get to ask questions. And yeah, there's a lot of things that I wanna do that I think I've sprung from this book. So now I'm just trying to figure out how exactly that all happens.
How important has having a, like group of girlfriends or close friends been for you in your life?
Oh my God.
Defining. Truly, I have my same best friends girlfriend I guys too, but the girlfriend, no offense guys that you know, I love you, but the girls love my hometown. Girlfriends that I grew up with are my ride or die to borrow a phrase. And like we are in communication.
Oh, pretty much every day and like the, the hysterical laughing and the like when something bad happens we're in it together and it's something very traditional in a way, even though we are all across the country. For most of history, we would've been in our village together and we would've lived there our whole lives.
Or if someone left, they, when they left. They gone. Yeah. And because of science and technology, we are together and we see each other's kids, their faces growing up and not just when something happens, but in the monotony of everyday life, we're in it together.
And, that is I have four brothers, I, three half brothers and one full brother. I have no biological sisters. And I gotta tell you, like these, this group of women is really a sisterhood of since early childhood. And I am so grateful for them. And it really does make, going through the ups and downs of life completely different when you have a little tribe of sisters that is there for you.
And so often
You can't trust yourself in making the best decisions for you. 'Cause we're naval contemplative or stuck on something we want. And you're like, and you need your friends to be like that's not either. That's a bad idea. That's not good enough for you.
What are you doing?
And also, I think sometimes we have a tendency, and maybe this is just me, but a tendency to downplay the really exciting stuff. And to have some cheerleading. Yes. Saying wait a second. That's awesome. I didn't know you said I could swear and I just censored myself.
Let me try again. That's fucking awesome. And actually get that sense of like the Greek chorus, saying you did it. Yeah. That's really. Amazing. And to have that, and it's like when it's your partner or your parent, you're like you just like me. You know what I mean?
And it's like your friends do too, of course. But there's just something about that feels so tangible and like you think, oh wow, that was. That I did get a, get that done or whatever. Do a good job. And I think that's really something so special. And yeah, I, again, it's something that if I was religious, I would have a women's group or some, yeah. There would be like that part of life of things that you were supposed to do together, whatever. And because we don't have that, we have to carve it out for ourselves. That's why we've created powerful ladies. Yeah.
Speaking of the technology that allows us to be everywhere, I called my mother, who's currently in Connecticut, babysitting our nephews.
Oh, nice. And I'm talking to her on the phone, not. FaceTime and she tells him like, oh, I'm talking to, auntie Kara on the phone. And he's but where is she? Like he, he asked questions the way that people would have in 1901, but yes, but where are they? Yes. How are they in this box?
Yes. It's wait, we've gone full circle. What is happening?
Yes, totally. Oh my God. That's, and it's and then this my, my friend's daughter was like looking at a picture or something from when we were kids and she was like how come it's not in black and white? And we're like, it was like in 1990, how dare you.
But like that idea of everything before this moment it's so hard when you're little to grasp like how long ago things were and how quickly things have changed or not. Yes.
No. Yeah, if they pick 'em at cassette, they're like, what do you do with this? Yes.
And I remember as a kid, like there would be always be jokes about eight tracks.
And I like didn't fully know what that was, but I knew that was the thing before tapes and that was now really passe. And like now I'm like, my daughter is not was she ever gonna even see a cd, SCD? No.
And that's what, you know when you go back to talking about all the technology and knowledge that we've lost in past civilizations, it's like if something would happen where all the digital things would go away, no cloud, we'd be so
screwed.
So screwed. I know. Or at the very least it would be a big headache for future anthrop anthropologists. Yeah. They're like, they were idiots. Like this must have been a dark
age. Yeah. You're like, you just have to press the power button and you can find it. All the files are inside the computer like Zoolander.
Yeah. I feel that's what like the ancient Egyptians are saying. S you're touching the wrong block. Yeah. Stop it. That's really funny. It's right there. One of my favorite quotes is from Thomas Jefferson, and it's in a letter to his son. 'cause he went abroad to France and he says, once you go abroad, it'll be the most amazing thing you've ever done, and you'll never be fully content again.
And it really speaks to the fact that when you go outta your village bubble you never get to have everything you love in one place again.
And I remember going to a friend's when I had first moved here, I went to her friend's baby shower in San Diego, and she had her high school friends there and college friends and her family and friends from work.
And I had a great time. And then I cried all the way home. Oh. Because I was like, I don't know if I will ever get that. Ah. And it was like, I'm so thankful for the moving and then traveling all the things and the fact that I have people around the world that I cherish. And I was like, that's it.
And then it made me think about sex and the city. I'm like, I'm gonna have to throw a party every year and they're gonna have to come. And it doesn't have to be a wedding. Yes. It doesn't have to be a baby
shower. You're just coming. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really true, is like that idea of.
Finding the thing to sell, like the urge to celebrate and then, okay, we'll figure out what we're gonna celebrate, but to like really find the things in life that inspire that. And if the goal is to find the joy. And find the togetherness and then, and that I think, we have these ideas of what is a reason to have a party or not, but all that stuff, we just made that up.
And you keep making it up. Yeah,
exactly. Exactly. It's like the conversation of everything is empty and meaningless and because it's empty and meaningless, you can do whatever you want. And if you don't like that, change it. If you want that.
Make it right. And, we have this idea of this is traditional and this is how things are.
But all, everything that we think of as traditional is brand new on the scale of human history. Even if you are the most orthodox, the most about, you're still doing things in a way that, like a thousand years ago, they would've been like, whoa, slow down. This is totally way too modern, yeah. And I think that we every, traditions and culture and customs. They have to mutate in order to survive.
Like everything, it, I'm 100% like everything. So we ask everyone who comes in the show where they put themselves on the Powerful Lady Scale. Oh, the scale is, zero, average, everyday human, and 10 the most amazing, powerful possible.
So where do you put yourself today and where do you think you put yourself on average?
Oh, that's so interesting. Wow. I am, my first instinct is that is not for me to say. No, I think that I would say that the person who's the one, on, on that scale that is still a superhero in some ways, yeah. And that's, I think, there are days where I'm like, I'm a disaster. And I, very minor, errands seem impossible. And then there are days where I feel like, so on my game, and so I don't know, I'm having a good day.
I'll say a five. But I think that for everyone, even dare I say, were I to guess, even Beyonce sometimes has a moment where she doesn't feel like she is wearing like a superhero cape.
Yes, for sure. I honestly love asking that question just because I am so excited to see what people say. Yeah.
What's does is, what's the wildest answer you've gotten? I'm really impressed when people are like, I'm a 12, and I'm like, yeah, girl. Wow. Yes. And then someone who is so badass would be like, I think I'm a two because the, if I'm not, if I'm a 10, I have nothing to work for. Oh, yeah. So it's totally psychological.
Yes. And it's fascinating. Yeah. And I'm sure someone should take that question, study it because yeah. It really reveals a lot about so many different layers being the mother of a daughter. Yes. What do you really want her to know about what it means to be powerful and a lady and all the things wrapped into what it means to be gender identity women, or at least born female?
Yes. Oh God, that's such a good question. I I think that there's something really valuable about the idea of if you like. I don't know how to even exactly describe this 'cause it's so hard. But I feel like I was born at a time and maybe the place I grew up, or I'm guess maybe the school was really good, but I felt like I had to learn that like later, that sometimes girls weren't told that they, this is gonna sound really weird, but that they're not good at math and science.
And I'd be like, what? I al my hope is that my daughter has to like, be taught that this has been a problem historically. Rather than being like Yeah, I know. And I think that's, I think there is just something to say, something to be said for just ha having the, that it's I don't wanna say like you can do just as well as a boy, it's you're, there's all of this stuff Yeah.
Is totally artificial and the cracks are. Already the, these walls are coming down. I'm like picturing like the Berlin wall. Yes. Like the, this, we're dismantling this system. And you'll have to study it in school because, or reading it. Yeah. Read about it in a book because you're not hopefully gonna live it.
And that's my hope is that the conversations we have about this are like, her being like, is that true that used to be that way? Because I feel like I was really lucky and was like, so encouraged that I didn't even realize until, probably late elementary school that this is an issue.
And for me, even later when I started going out into the world and being like, wait, like someone told you couldn't do something. Yeah. Like I, it like no matter what gender you are, it so catches me up guard when someone's oh, I can't do that. And I'm like, how do you know?
Also it must be, it's gotta be a hundred percent of the time about the thing that person wanted to do that they didn't get to do.
Yeah. And I think that, that is what's so painful. Is it is it's like the hurt people thing, yeah. It's if someone's telling you can't do this, it's because. They wanted to.
Yeah. And so often it comes from back to that fear conversation. Yeah.
I don't want you to get hurt like I did, so just don't even think about It's not, but it's go somewhere that's safer. That's not,
it's right. It's but unfortunately that is not a good system. And also how does this, how does it stop unless somebody finally does it?
Yeah. No completely powerful.
Ladies completely came out of not feeling the need to advocate for women. But because like you said about your girlfriends, like there are women in my life who when I'm with them, I'm like, I am such a badass. Yeah. And when I lose connection with those people, I lose connection with like how powerful I actually am.
Yeah. And it's amazing to me how there are some people who it, there's just something about the your interaction where you realize oh my God, I'm a badass. You are together Like. Oh my gosh, we can do anything. Yes. And then I realized that there were people in my life who had never felt that, and I was like, we gotta stop this.
Yeah. Yeah. There are amazing people I know and amazing people I haven't met yet, and we're all gonna hang out and Right.
Shit's gonna change. And I think it's like that ping pong effect, and it can go either way. There's also people who they feel miserable, then you feel miserable and then every, that kinda thing.
But there is the really beautiful ping pong effect of that mutual like confidence and lifting each other up and like having a comfortable place to talk about things that are sometimes uncomfortable to talk about. Yeah. And that is just, it's, that's like having a superpower.
It truly is.
And also just the fact that there's so many things that we haven't talked about. Then when we do talk about it, you're like, oh wait, we all do this. And it's no big deal.
So I've
been feeling like shame and guilt and Oh man. All these other things about it.
This is so dumb. Yeah. I know.
And, but it's so hard. And it's like the, like imposter syndrome is the first thing that comes to mind. And I'm just like, the number of women who like from afar or even up close, and I'm like, oh, you're so cool and smart. Yeah. And confident. And obviously, you know that at every minute of the day.
And they're like, oh my god. He'll have all those, yeah. Totally terrifying fears that are like, I'm not supposed to be here, they're gonna find out that I'm not. Yes. And it's it's just amazing. And there is something really reassuring. I'm like if she is nervous about that, I'm like, okay.
It's, on one level you're like, what hope do I have? But then on another level you're like, okay, then it might, this may just be like the baseline of existence.
Yes. And like founders fraud, it's a real thing. Everyone feels it. Yeah. And to your po like we keep coming back to the same theme of what we do when we're afraid.
Yes. And when you're afraid you don't share, you don't pass your knowledge on you. Like you feel like you have to keep it and hide it. And I just love the idea of give it away.
Yeah.
Give it away. Like it's actually you are gonna be more powerful giving it away Yeah. Than doing anything else because then it can multiply and ripple out and all the things
also.
Yeah. And people like when people are vulnerable it's really hard to like somebody who doesn't ever show vulnerability, who's not at least a little self-deprecating or something, like it's really hard to connect with someone who's just totally a hundred percent confident all the time.
Yeah. And it's like you actually end up, that's something really powerful is like when you put down your defenses, you actually can feel a little bit more loved,
yes. For some reason, my head went to Martha Stewart when she like came out as BFFs with Snoop Dogg. Oh yes. Like a whole new career.
Something. I thought you were gonna
say when she went to, when she went to prison, and which I really, I, obviously should not inside her trade or whatever she did, but like that I was like, okay, so she's not so perfect. Yeah. And all of a sudden it's oh, okay. All right. I can see her in a different light.
And she definitely came out cooler. I'm not advocating going to prison for white collar fraud as a solution or a way to make more friends. That's not what I'm saying for. You know what your next book is gonna give out. Yeah, exactly. No, I'm just saying that it's like when you pretend to be perfect all the time.
Yeah. It's. Sucks.
It you do set a standard that we're all trying to now race towards. Yeah. But it really isn't 'cause we wanna hang out with you. It's because we're like, okay, now we need that too.
Yeah. It's, yeah. And it's also, it's like you wanna be worshiped. You don't wanna be loved when you wanna be perceived as perfect.
Yeah. And worship can't go both ways. It's no fun. No fun. What do you want our
audience to know about? Oh my book is called For Small Creatures, such as We, and you can, get it where you get your books. And I'm on Instagram and Twitter at Sasha Sagan. This has just been amazing. Oh, thank you.
I feel like we could do this for six hours.
Yes. This is why Jordan has to like, keep on me 'cause she's okay, you can't talk for eight hours because then I'll have to be like six podcasts and so my replacement for that is we'll just have to have you back on. I would love that. Thank you so much.
That would make me very happy. You're welcome. Thank you so much for being on the podcast and you have been truly wonderful. Thank you. Anytime.
I had already decided before I met her that I was a committed fan girl. And I'm pleased to report that meeting people you admire in real life does not disappoint. Go and invite them. Go and connect with them. You never know what's gonna happen. It was a joy to have her on this episode to get to introduce her to all of you and to make a new friend who is a great addition to the powerful ladies crew to connect, support and follow Sasha.
You can follow her on Instagram at Sasha Sagan or visit her website sasha sagan.com. You can of course also buy her book everywhere Books are sold. In addition to supporting Sasha, I highly recommend you check out. Both the original cosmos from PBS as well as the newest edition released on March 9th on National Geographic, hosted by Neil Degrass Tyson.
Every way that you can connect with Sasha and everything she discussed is of course available in our show notes@thepowerfulladies.com slash podcast. I hope you've enjoyed this new episode of The Powerful Ladies Podcast. If you're a yes to powerful ladies and want to support us, you can subscribe to this podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts.
Make sure to give us a five star rating and leave a powerful review on Apple Podcasts. You can also be one of our Patreons for as little as $1 a month at patreon.com/powerful. Ladies, we can get access to exclusive content that we're making just for you. Follow us on Instagram at Powerful Ladies, and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube page and of course.
Visit our website, the powerful ladies.com for all the latest news details and updates. I'd like to thank our producer and audio engineer, Jordan Duffy. Without her, this wouldn't be possible. You can follow her on Instagram at Jordan K. Duffy. Thank you all so much for listening. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.
Until then, I hope we're taking on being powerful in your life. Go be awesome and up to something you love. This episode of The Powerful Ladies is Made Possible by our Patreon subscribers. Did you know that for as little as $1 a month you can support this podcast? You can send us love, tell us that you want more.
You can support all of our events and all that we're doing in the world to fulfill on our full circle of empowerment. It starts at $1 a month. It's less than the coffee you're drinking a day, and there's so many more levels that give you more bonuses and fun things, and behind the scenes information. So go to our patreon, patreon.com/powerful ladies and support us today.
Thank you in advance.
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Created and hosted by Kara Duffy
Audio Engineering & Editing by Jordan Duffy
Production by Amanda Kass
Graphic design by Anna Olinova
Music by Joakim Karud
