Episode 343: Inside the Southern California Real Estate Market | Kathy Clark & Brenna Van Hoogenstyn | Founders of Harcourts Blue Water
In this episode of The Powerful Ladies Podcast, host Kara Duffy sits down with Kathy Clark and Brenna Van Hoogenstyn, the expert mother-daughter real estate team transforming how buyers and sellers navigate the Southern California real estate market. Kathy and Brenna share their real estate career journey, what it takes to succeed as top-performing realtors, and the skills required to thrive in a highly competitive—and often misunderstood—industry. Kara explores current Southern California housing market trends, common myths about becoming a realtor, and the personal and professional strategies that help this family team deliver exceptional client service. Whether you’re planning to buy a home, exploring real estate as a career, or want insider insights into today’s housing market, this episode is filled with valuable, actionable advice.
“I’ve never been as happy in any career as I am in this one. We get to serve people—through their toughest times and their happiest.”
“Business partnerships are a marriage. Working with my mom has helped me become a better version of myself.”
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Newport Beach, California
Orange County
Corona Del Mar
Irvine
Laguna Niguel
Long Beach
Lakewood
Chicago
Hawaii
Italy
Fashion Island Redevelopment
South Coast Plaza Redevelopment
Trinity Broadcasting Site Redevelopment
ProVisors Networking Group
STEP — Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners
Private Fiduciary Organization
Probate certification
Refinancing
Mixed-use development
Tiny homes
Interest Rate Expectations
Market Sentiment Surveys
2008 Mortgage Crisis -
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction to The Powerful Ladies Podcast
00:36 Meet the Real Estate Experts: Kathy Clark and Brenda Van Hoenstein
00:51 The Realities of the Real Estate Market
02:10 Starting in Real Estate: Kathy's Journey
05:16 Building a Long-Term Real Estate Business
07:39 The Importance of Relationships in Real Estate
14:22 Advice for First-Time Home Buyers in Southern California
19:24 Current Real Estate Market Trends and Predictions
26:28 The Future of Real Estate Development in Southern California
31:06 Exploring the Long Beach Market
31:58 Balancing Business and Personal Relationships
32:17 Communication and Therapy
33:35 Generational Differences and Personal Growth
38:11 Powerful Ladies and Inner Strength
39:46 Daily Habits and Self-Care
42:25 Entrepreneurial Challenges and Rewards
50:08 Reflections on Self-Employment
52:16 Final Thoughts and Community
56:32 Conclusion and Farewell
343 - Brenna Van Hoogenstyn & Kathy Clark
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[00:00:00]
Kara: Welcome to The Powerful Ladies Podcast. I'm Kara Duffy. Real estate has gotten more and more intimidating as cost of living, inflation and home prices. Keep climbing. While salary and wages have stagnated, especially here in Southern California, it can feel impossible to get a foot in the door when it comes to owning a home.
Kara: At the extreme end, you can watch reality TV and assume being a realtor is easy, and everyone's buying and selling multi-billion dollar homes. Whenever a topic starts to make my head swirly. I like to bring in an expert in this episode. I have not one, but two real estate experts, Kathy Clark and Brenda Van Hoogenstyn.
Kara: They are a successful, knowledgeable, and entrepreneurial mother and daughter real estate team. In this episode, we discuss the realities of the market, the realities of being an actual successful realtor, what it's really like to work with [00:01:00] family, and why there is no way out of hard work.
Kara: Welcome to the Powerful Ladies Podcast.
Brenna: Thank you. Thank you so much for having us. We're honored to be Here.
Kara: I'm very excited you guys are here today.
Kara: Let's jump in and tell everyone who you are, where you are in the world, and what we're up to. And Kathy, let's start with you.
Kathy: Well, uh, I'm Kathy Clark and this is my daughter and business partner, Brenna Van Hoogenstyn. And we're residential real estate brokers who are in Newport Beach. And, we've worked together now for about nine years and, uh.
Brenna: We've known each other for longer obviously.
Kathy: And, uh, yeah, it's, uh, I've never been as happy in any career as I am in this career, and I've had several. We get to serve people. Um, we to get people through tough times and we get to get people through happy times. And it's just, it's a great business and, and we've learned a lot about each other. We get [00:02:00] along, uh, far better and on a deeper level than we ever did before we did this together. So, um, it hasn't been without its bumps, but.
Brenna: Yeah, I think that about sums it up.
Kara: Kathy, were you in real estate before Brenna joined or did you guys join at the same time?
Kathy: No, I was in real estate before and I actually was in mortgages in the early two thousands. And people kept saying, you should be a real estate agent. And I fought that and then
Brenna: tell her why you fought that.
Kathy: This is horrible if it's bad. Yeah. Um, because I was a real estate agent, I was referral based just like we are today in residential, but as mortgages, real estate agents, financial planners, CPAs referred to me and real estate agents except about five of the 150 I worked with checked out the second we were in escrow. So they were nowhere to be found. They weren't worried about inspections or appraisals and um, they were just unbearable to work with. And they pushed me to make people qualified for more than they they should be. And. [00:03:00] I came away saying real estate agents are in general lazy and stupid. And, um, that's not true of the good ones, but that's why 74% of the agents didn't do a deal last year.
Kathy: Mm-hmm. Because it, it, everybody thinks it's without expertise and they think anybody can do it. And I, I heard yesterday how many new agents are coming on. It would have to be one of the hardest times to become an agent right now.
Brenna: The, the desire for her to leave when people told her it would be something she'd be great at was not super high. And then I think in time she recognized how good she could be and, got into the residential side and, and I saw her doing it and I was managing a bar at the time and just thought, I wanna go back to school without student loans. I'll just do this for a few years and make a couple, um, bucks and then go back to school. And then here I am, you know, 10 years later and I wouldn't imagine doing anything else. So it's been a fun journey.
Kara: Well, I think [00:04:00] it's really interesting the point you bring up that. So many people think like, oh, like I'm sort of good at sales, I'll do real estate. Or I like homes, I like, I'll do real estate. Yeah. And
Kathy: I like touring pretty homes and dressing up and driving a nice car. It's easy. Yeah.
Kara: Really. Yeah. And I think there's some of that illusion that gets compounded by seeing people highlighted on realtor reality tv that those of us who know better know that some of them aren't actually realtors and that's not how deals are done. And it's not that dramatic, like being a realtor is a serious, hardworking need to be focused business like it is no joke being a realtor. It's especially no joke being a realtor in Southern California when there's a lot of competition, there's a lot of high expectations and it's, one of the most expensive real estate markets in the [00:05:00] us. Like you can't work in a premium space and not show up as experts. What do you guys do on a regular basis to make sure that you're maintaining that expert level that you bring to your customers?
Brenna: What kind of differentiates us, I believe, is that we look at real estate as a long-term business that we are building. It is very common that an agent will do a couple of deals, make a good amount of money, and then take off for six months. And so it's looked at very differently person to person. And for us, just like anyone, an attorney would study law and anyone would say up to date on what's going on in their industry, um, we are consistently, and they're, they're honing their craft, right? We're doing the same. So, you know, we're consistently looking at what worked here, what didn't, what business do we wanna build? What do we want this to look like in five years? What do we need to do to get there? Um, and when it comes to our clients, I mean, we have an incredibly [00:06:00] high standard of service. And that, that in part comes from the fact that this is someone's often their largest asset. Mm-hmm. And I don't think enough real estate professionals take that portion of it seriously, that this is often one of the biggest transactions someone will do. And we, there is an onus upon us to represent them well and to guide them and to be an advocate during that time for not only their experience, but for their.
Brenna: Financial benefit. So that's the way we look at our business. Is there anything you'd add?
Kathy: Well, we're, we're also, um, I'm probate certified. I've just joined the, um, step organization, which is all about estate and trust and, and is difficult to become a member of, I've discovered. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, we're joining the private fiduciary organization and so those are all educational. When we're [00:07:00] there, we're getting, could be getting CE credits, um, for all the information they're sharing. And then we're constantly paying attention to the economic and finance markets. We've got friends in high levels, some companies that are willing to share information with us. And of course we're in our, our high level networking group and there, um, we constantly learn new things, so.
Kathy: I think. One of the thing that differentiates us is I love learning to, to go to just a meeting where it's just social. Honestly, that's a little painful for me. Brenna fortunately does it better than I do if I'm there learning something. I can do it for hours.
Kara: When I think as well too, like so often people think of real estate as, as a very transactional business and one and done situations, but so many of the realtors that I know, especially around here, they are buying multiple homes. They're children's homes. You become embedded into their life in a different way [00:08:00] if you're doing it the right way. Um, how do you move it from a transactional business to a relational business?
Brenna: Well. To me, it feels like you'd have to try really hard to make it transactional. I don't relate to that mindset. It seems so counterintuitive. Mm-hmm. For even if you're just thinking about your income, not just the benefit to your clients, but your income alone, it seems like, why would we bang our head against a wall to create a relationship, to sell something and then to not foster it further and do a good enough job that someone wants to continue working with you for years and years into the future? So for us, because so much of our business is referral based, and even if there wasn't the accountability that comes with a referral based business, we hold ourselves to an incredibly high standard because a long-term relationship is at stake. Mm-hmm. And that's why we take our vendors, every person involved, we take it so seriously because their representation of us. Um, and [00:09:00] so, yeah, I think it, it would be hard for us not to look at it that way, but we are always. The thought process is how do I do the right thing and how do I serve my client? So even if it means we make less, even if it means someone doesn't buy or sell at that time, even if it means, um, the business isn't ours, we will do what's best. But that's the paramount kind of focus. That's what, that's just what who we are.
Kathy: And every, every business I had before this business has always been built the same way. Mm-hmm. And some of those clients followed me through five businesses, um, because of it. 'cause that's, those are relationships I love. I, creating a new relationship is hard work. It is. I, I would rather have people that, that are happy to see me and, and yeah. And understand what we do. That's just so much more fun and, and rewarding.
Kara: Well, and you know, we met through that high level networking group you mentioned and what has attracted me to both of you in the group. 'cause there's so many people [00:10:00] in the group who are phenomenal, but how you guys stand out is. While you're so educating and educating the rest of us about your industry and businesses you are, are always asking about how are you and what's going on? You're showing up places like, I just wanna hang out with you guys. And I've shared before that my role with, with clients and who's in my network. Like who do I wanna go on vacation with? That's my standard. It's not who do I wanna have a drink with, who do I wanna go dinner with? 'cause that's pretty broad. Like I can make it through drinks and dinner with almost anyone. And I have proven this to myself with some of my dating history. Yeah. But it's like, who do I wanna go
Kathy: as we all have? Yeah.
Kara: Yes. But it's like, who do I wanna go on vacation with? Who do I want to in embed, um, myself and my life and my circle around because I've become so protective of my clients, my life, like this kind of VIP dome that I've been trying to put around my life and my businesses and. [00:11:00] Within, moments of meeting you guys, I'm like, they're allowed in, they can come into the dome.
Brenna: Oh, that such, that's such an honor.
Kara: Brenna, you and I had a meeting with a third party about two weeks ago. Mm-hmm. And it was the least networking moment I think I've ever, I've had in a long time. Mm-hmm. Because all of us were just talking about what's going on and how can we help each other and what's happening. And I think I'm, I'm kind of in the middle of the, of both of you where I don't like small talk. I like it to be purposeful. I like it to be, I love learning, but I, it needs to be like, I want the depth and the impact and the how are we actually helping each other achieve these big dreams? Otherwise, it kind of falls into that bucket of these bad dates I've been on and I'm like, I'm so happy I spent my time here versus 80 million other things that I could have been doing.
Brenna: My friends will always kind of make fun of me because we'll sit down at dinner and I'll be like, okay, so like. Let's talk about your childhood. Like that's just who I am. Mm-hmm. That is interesting to me. [00:12:00] I'm so much more interested in people, why they do the things that they do, how they got to where they are now, where they're going than I am. The surface level stuff we're talking about other people, like, it's just not for me. Um, I'm not interested. I get bored of it and yeah, we, that's part of the reason we loved Provisors and we are so drawn to you is because I remember we both walked away after meeting you being like, she's so brilliant. And I feel like I just wanna be around people who I can learn from. And that's, I mean, there are so many, especially women improvisors that I am just so blown away by every time I talk to them. But I'm like, give me more, like, I just want a few more moments with this person. And um, and I just really value that in my life and it just so happens to also support and grow my business at the same time.
Kathy: Right. So when I was, when I was young, I, I learned to ski. I had family in Colorado. My parents shipped me off. It was easy babysitting and I learned to ski. And so I was the first kid in the valley who knew how to ski. So I taught everybody else how to ski. [00:13:00] I didn't get any better while I was doing that. So what I discovered was when I discovered some friends who were better skiers than I was, my game upped very quickly.
Kathy: And I look at business the same way, so I get bored. Yeah. If there's nothing in the conversation or if somebody's totally superficial. And I attribute part of that honestly, to my age. My patients level is greatly reduced. My number of friends in my inner circle is greatly reduced. Um, and I'm just careful and selective. I want people who I share the same values with and that are really worth investing the time. Otherwise, I'd rather be home alone with, with my animals truthfully.
Kara: You guys have brought such amazing knowledge to the meetings I've been in about the realities of real estate. And I think for people listening, like buying a home can be so overwhelming. How you go through the process if you've never done it before is like in this whole, I don't know what, I don't know space, so maybe I just avoid [00:14:00] it and keep renting. And then when we think about buying property in Southern California, myself included, there's so many of us that are like, I'll just buy property in Italy first.
Kara: 'cause it'll be like one 10th the price.
Brenna: Yeah.
Kara: And I, and I know that it's just like how we're thinking about investing in a home and investing in property. I think it's just backwards 'cause we don't know better. So maybe my first question is, what advice would you give people who are. Thinking about getting their first property, or at least their first property in Southern California, and how should they be approaching it?
Brenna: I recognize within my own mind, where I tend to struggle with decisions or steps is when I don't have enough information. I think your brain automatically goes to the place of no, because you don't know enough, right? So what I always suggest is, is talk to a couple different professionals, talk to a lender, talk to your financial planner, talk to a real estate agent, like, get some data because the numbers will tell you [00:15:00] whether you are kind of, um, you're pushing yourself out of an opportunity or not. And I think a lot of the time the perception here is so much more unapproachable than what it actually is. And I have people say to me all the time, well, you couldn't get a home for under a million. And I'm like. What are you talking about? Like, you can get a home for under a million, seven minutes from the water. Like we just need to talk about it. So, uh, that's my thought process.
Kathy: Well, and and you can't do it soon enough because the equity appreciation, we had clients who, we had one couple who moved here from Chicago and they sold a big home there for $238,000 and they wanted to buy a place in CDM and, and they just could not. They're like, well, the prices are gonna drop. I'm like, no, they're not. Yeah. But in Chicago, yeah, but who wants to live in Chicago? Let's be honest. It snows there, like, you know, six months out of the year. That's why you came here. So there's a reason you're here. And that's, they bought 14 years later, paid a million, put 200,000 in it, and they're in a [00:16:00] condo. Mm-hmm. They could have been in a home. It could have been where they wanted to be. It it, they just didn't listen and that money they could have made in between. 'cause we went back and, 'cause I'm me, I went back and showed 'em properties they didn't buy 'cause they were sure it was overpriced and the property's like tripled. The weight of wealth in California is real estate. And I bought my first piece of property in California at 20. I've owned a lot of property over the years. I would not be working today if I kept all that property. It's that simple. So I don't think anybody can get in. I don't care what you get into. I always prefer single family because you don't have the issues of the HOA fees and the HOO boards, which can be sometimes difficult. So, but I think anybody should get in wherever they can get in. As soon as they can get in. I don't think there's a wrong time to buy unless you think you're gonna buy and sell in two years, then I think that's dangerous.
Brenna: Mm-hmm. Agreed. Yeah.
Kara: I mean, growing up we moved so many times. I think my parents have bought and sold homes within a year because [00:17:00] we moved so much. Mm-hmm. And we've lived in, uh, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Ohio, California. Like, they've seen the variety of like what happens. I'm always amazed at how comfortable they are being like, it's fine. It'll sell, don't worry about it. I think there was,
Kara: yeah,
Kara: one house they had where part of the relocation package included, like reimbursing them for any loss they had on the home. But once out of 20 something homes that they've probably. Owned at this point. And so for me, thinking about moving in general and buying homes and all that, I have such a high, like high risk tolerance for so much of it because I've never, like, I don't have a home I grew up in, it didn't exist. And so the attachment to the home for me is so different. Um, also having moved so much myself as an adult, I'm like, if my dog's there, if my art and my books are there, [00:18:00] that's home. And I, you know, I think it's really interesting when you see people who are like in their own way in the real estate process, they're like, I don't like the carpet.
Kara: You're like, that is the easiest thing to replace.
Brenna: Literally the easiest thing. Yeah. I don't like the paint in that one room. And I'm like, please, just let me help you. Yeah. Like we can change that.
Kathy: Well, and where they won't talk to a lender. No, no. I'm not gonna talk to a lenders until I found the right house. You don't really know what you can afford. Yeah. And you may think you can afford this and maybe you can afford this. Mm-hmm. Or maybe you could actually afford this. And nobody looks at what's my tax benefit gonna be? What are my write offs gonna be? Everybody just looks at that number and goes, oh my gosh. And if you look at that number right now, everybody gets noxious. We just so well, and
Kara: at the same time, the house next to me, which is smaller than my like two bedroom cottage, is renting for $3,700. And like, you know, my, my parents are currently living in North Carolina and that's like three of their [00:19:00] mortgages.
Brenna: Totally.
Kara: , I think that there's no matter what you're choosing to put your money into a rental or a home you own around here, the, it's like, it's a scary number no matter which way you're going. So, which one actually. Allows you to either build wealth or have the ease and freedom that you, that comes with different things.
Brenna: Absolutely.
Kara: Um, when you look at trends happening in the real estate market right now, you had dropped some really incredible trends the other day. Um, Brenna at one of our meetings about, you know, we know that in Southern California house prices tend to go up, not down, but there's changes right now with the interest rates and some people being nervous about the economy, how long homes are taking and the impact you guys can have in speeding things like that up.
Brenna: Sure. Well, what, what we talked about the other day. It is been a seller's market for, since COVID that's just sellers have been in control. They've had bidding wars on [00:20:00] homes. If it was positioned well, it was selling and it was selling for a great price fast. And so there's been quite an adjustment recently and what we talked about is that, I mean, if you look at sentiment about the housing marketing in the United States about, I think 70% of people believe that there's a crash coming. So that influences decisions. There's a lot of just pessimism as well as fear and uncertainty for good reason, understandably, with everything going on. But, um, you know, 30 to 40% of the homes on the market right now in Orange County have already price reduced. And the likelihood that you have to price reduce several more times before you sell is very high. It's at about 80%. So when we're talking about the numbers, like that didn't exist a couple of years ago, and we have so many more homes on the market right now than we used to, however. We are nowhere near the number of pumps on the market in comparison to demand that we were, when the crash happened last
Kathy: 2008, [00:21:00]
Brenna: it was, we're nowhere near it. It's just a balancing of a market that has been one, you know, shifted towards one, um, towards sellers for a long time. And I think that's uncomfortable along with a lot of other uncertainty going on. But I mean, I think Kathy can speak to rates and, and where we see things going in regards to that.
Kathy: I've been told for some time by people I trust we're gonna see a, a rate drop in September, which does not mean the day that he speaks, the rates are gonna drop. It means he spoke yesterday and were, the lenders are already gonna be factoring that into their pr, their rates. Um, so if you wait till the day he actually drops it, they usually go up. Um, but people don't understand that. They also think he actually dictates rates. The Fed doesn't dictate rates, he dictates the cost of money. Um, so I think we're gonna see a drop in September. I think we may see another one in December. And I think the general sentiment is what that's gonna do is creating absolute feeding frenzy for all those buyers that are out there [00:22:00] waiting. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm not so sure that's the case because we're pretty expensive at this point. It's pretty hard to afford mm-hmm. The, what it takes to buy any kind of property. So while I think there'll be an increase, I'm not really sure that there'll be a massive flood of people back into the market. So it, I'm, I'm more of a wait and see. We know what we've got right now. That's how we always approach everything. Mm-hmm. We don't assume that we know what it's gonna be like down the road.
Kara: I often talk about how. There are economic disasters happening every day at an individual level, a family level, an industry level in different countries, different cities, different states, like the who's winning and who's losing from a financial perspective is in flux every day based on so many different demographic points. And people who have made their biggest wealth jumps have been when the rest of the economy wasn't in a great place. And I think that while we want to [00:23:00] get the best deal we can for our home, there's this magical thing called refinancing. And it's like, okay, but like choosing to buy a home, especially if it's your primary residence, that's more about your lifestyle and where you're at today and what you need. And do you wanna be in a house before school starts? Do you wanna be in a house before the holidays? Like it's about your life right now. And my, like, my opinion for this whole year so far. It has been that like it's great that all of this stuff is happening around us and we're trying to pay attention to it and be aware. Great. In the sense that we're paying attention, not necessarily what's happening, but at the same time, like we have to keep moving forward with our life and our business and our plans because why are we being influenced at this extreme level by everything else going on around us? And the people who are winning right now are just continuing to do their plan and work their plan and do their work and be like, great, love that that's happening over here. I have to keep going. And you know, I think you said it, [00:24:00] uh, it correctly about the rights sizing because when people were bidding on every single house, including fixer uppers, and they were going for hundreds of thousands of dollars more than they were actually worth, that's cuckoo bananas. Like, we don't need that. Like, and so when you talk about like people selling homes and having to reduce them, I'm willing to bet that the reductions are because they decided to go big versus go smart.
Brenna: Well, and, and I talk about this, I should talk about this more, I was thinking about doing a video on this, which is working with the yes-men. Like those people that are sitting on the market at a certain number, either think their home is worth that and their agent didn't bring them back down to earth. Or the agent thinks that and isn't in touch enough with the market to understand that it's not the case. So I think we always talk about being real estate fit, um, and being able to weather different [00:25:00] conditions. It's really easy to be a listening agent in 2020. Really easy. Um, the buyers came to you, you leveraged them up and it was, I mean, you didn't even have to try to create bidding wars. So I think. When we're talking about these shifts, um, and a disparity between, um, homeowner understanding and what the market is bearing, you have to be really sure and trusting of that professional that you're, um, that you've contracted with,
Kathy: um, and, and that they're truly real estate fit. If they're not, if they've, if they've done two deals this year and they don't understand some of the points in negotiation, you just can't help Yeah. But not have someone who's really capable in that circumstance. It might have been great five years ago, you know, but,
Brenna: um, well, they can't apply the same strategy that they applied in a different market. Like if they're not adjusting their approach and guiding you with that in mind, they're doing you a disservice. So. [00:26:00] These are all the things that I think when we talk about real estate agents in general, it can be really easy for people to believe all of us are the same and we all are overpaid. And I think a lot of us are overpaid, don't get me wrong. Um, but those are kind of some of those components that I think when done well, really serve the client and, and when done poorly pose massive risk. Mm-hmm. To, to at least your net takeaway at the very least.
Kara: I also think it's been really interesting to see how much real estate development has been opening up in Southern California recently. Um, you know, every time I, I read the Orange County Business Journal, there's like another approved however many, hundreds or thousands of units in either Irvine or Rancho somewhere. And I think it's interesting because there's a lot more mixed use property than has been improved in a, in what I feel like is a long time being kind, you know, on the outside of this
Kathy: or ever.
Kara: Yeah. Um, my [00:27:00] minor in college was like urban anthropology and we often Oh, okay. Like, um, I dunno if you've ever read the book, suburban Nation, but it kind of talks about how like what great creates great community and how having mixed use and having different types of homes for different phases and more walkability and more access, like creates a different thriving community. We see it automatically in places that are expensive. Like if you look at Corona Del Mar, it has a real main street. People can walk to things. If parking's tricky and the houses are expensive, they've probably nailed some of these community building components. And you see Irvine doing a lot of this built in planning com stuff. I think they do need to increase access to like. A bodega or you know, a coffee shop more often.
Kathy: Totally.
Kara: So you can walk to things that create third spaces. Yeah. Um, but how do you see, how do you see the landscape changing of like what homes are available? Because [00:28:00] in the same, uh, you know, magazine, they're bragging about the most expensive home ever sold on the ocean, and yet we're also talking about they're making one bedroom apartments available for sale. Mm-hmm. So how do you see it changing and, you know, is there hope for people who don't need a 6,000 square foot home to find a home?
Kathy: So, as an example where a Trinity broadcasting. Network was right next to the 4 0 5 freeway. Mm-hmm. That's been sold multiple times apparently. And finally now they're, they're going to build, I think 130 units in there. Some will be very moderately priced and some will and will increase from there. Um, so I think you're gonna see that I, you know, there's gonna be a lot of new building and a lot of changes around fashion island redevelopment. I'm not sure how much that's gonna benefit. , A normal price point kind of person. But there's also a lot around South Coast Plaza Costa make, it's being completely redeveloped. And I do think that's gonna be very [00:29:00] mixed. And I just heard recently at one of our meetings that that builders are now falling in love with building these thousand square foot units because they can house somebody, but cost per square foot, they get way more than they would if it was a full size unit. So I think we're gonna see more of the tiny houses and more of that kind of development over time. I certainly hope so. Yeah. Um, you know, it, it, I think there are a lot of solutions out there that haven't been implemented and, and I think it's foolish to think we're ever gonna have affordable housing in Newport Beach or Corona del Mar, or, you know, um, probably Laguna it. Mm-hmm. There nobody's gonna build it. That, that doesn't make sense for anyone. And it's, yeah. They're still a capital Yeah. To come country. So, yeah. I don't really see that hand and I hear people whine about it when I read things on the next door. Well, these prices are just ridicules. They are, you're living in California. If you don't like it, you can go [00:30:00] inland, you can go outta state. But this is what it is here. That's never changing and it's never changing. 'cause it's basic economics. People wanna be here.
Brenna: Mm-hmm. That's why our market doesn't fluctuate the same way others do. Um, so yeah, to be frustrated by that seems.
Kathy: A waste of energy.
Brenna: Exactly. And you, you knew, you knew what you were getting into.
Kathy: Well, I, I think the problem is, I think there's this concept that things are fair. Yep. And the way I look at it, and I I tend to be kind of more on the side of more housing, is an investor invested in risk. They have a right to make the profit they wanna make and they can make, and I don't think they should be shamed into doing anything else because somebody else doesn't think that's fair.
Brenna: Well, and it's not like you can't go 20 minutes from here and find a really affordable home. And I mean, we're on the Newport Peninsula right now, so, um, it's not like we're locked in, in terms of options. Mm-hmm. There's so many options. It's just the access that these really coastal, really affluent account [00:31:00] provide may not be. And, and attainable.
Kathy: And we sell property everywhere. We don't just sell property here. So we understand the Long beach market. We understand mm-hmm. The Laguna Niguel market. We understand a lot of 'em. So, you can move just a little ways away and you can get it, which is why so many people from LA moved down here specifically to Lu Laguna Miguel. Yep. You know why I'm having trouble saying those words? Um, but while we were selling there, we had tons of people coming down from la. So, so like, you get so much more here. Look at this view, look at this land. So there's always a deal somewhere else for someone else. Mm-hmm. Right? Everything. San Francisco, they moved down to LA and they moved here.
Kathy: Malibu moved down here. So, um, you know, I love, I love being here. I think it's a great place, but I certainly, um, don't have the expectation that I'm going to own, you know, 14 multi-units here. Those are gonna be owned elsewhere. Yeah. They're not gonna be owned in this market.
Kara: You mentioned a little bit earlier about [00:32:00] how your relationship has deepened since you've worked together. What do you do to make sure that you are both growing your business and protecting your personal relationship?
Kathy: Yes. Well, that's where we started. That's where we started. We went into a communication therapist and spent, what, six months, nine months with him. Yeah. And that helped because we do communicate very differently. I'm like, mm-hmm. Oh, you have a problem. Let me solve it. Um, very male. I was mentored by men, um, and brenna's, like, you're not addressing how I'm feeling. This is how I'm feeling, mom. So we have to work through that. And, and Brenna does a really good job of saying, wait a second, we haven't finished this. We need to come back here. Yeah. Where I'm like, okay, we'll solve problem. I won't do that again next. And she, that's not her.
Brenna: Well, yeah. Especially in the beginning where we, you know, there's leftover stuff from any parent raising [00:33:00] any child. There's gonna be stuff there. Right. And so. You know, when some of that ties with money and some of it ties with, it's just when you're starting a business together, there was a lot that needed to be, if you were just a regular adult child and a regular parent, you could just kind of sweep it outta the rug and not talk about it, see each other five times a year and call it a day. Right. So it was a necessity to drudge it up and to, um, and to heal a lot of it. True. Yeah. So, um, we, it, it was a big gift to be able to do this because we probably wouldn't have worked through it if we didn't work together. Um, and yeah, at times it's hard because, we know each other so well and we have my brother always jokes that we're like, it's like arguing with a mirror. Like we're so similar that, and, and we're so different in a lot of ways as well. Like, I'm a much more like I want to dig into stuff and understand it and then never do it. Like I wanna move on. Um. Kathy's, like, I don't wanna deal with the feelings, I just wanna like be productive and go [00:34:00] work. And we're very different in that way. But, but yeah, it's been such a process for me as an individual, as well as her. 'cause I'm also looking at this, like, this is, I'm vulnerable here, but business partnerships are a marriage. Mm-hmm. And so when I'm a single person when I'm looking at a future, uh, partner and spouse and how I show up in that relationship, I'm looking at how I show up in this one and thinking, okay, what, how can I tweak this so that I'm a better version of myself and I can, um, be a partner in other areas of my life, not just here in business?
Brenna: Because this is a pressure cooker. It really is. And when you take a sales based, a commission-based, um, business where everything is, it can be really uncertain at times, especially when you're building a business from the ground up. Again, pressure cooker of, of emotions, but it's been a huge learning experience for me individually and I think for us as mother and daughter. [00:35:00] But yeah, we do, uh, to your question, we do, we've implemented several things that we've grown into over time as a way to protect against these really common pitfalls that we'd watch ourselves get into time and time again. And we're able to, um, better protect for them. They're not eliminated, but we know how to approach them differently. But we've always been really good. Like we could have a screaming match in the car and then get to a networking event and be like, hi, and be so like lovey and cute. So yeah, it's, um, we've always been able to like work still, but we work a lot better together now.
Kathy: Mm-hmm. It's just a lot more fun, you know? And, and as a mother I care far more about her than I care about the business. Mm-hmm. So when it's a struggle for us, I really internalize that. And, um, you know, I've got a few more years of working through stuff. 'cause I didn't grow up in a normal family either, and I tried to not bring [00:36:00] that to my kids, but I told 'em early on when I figured it out, they'd be in therapy for different reasons than I was. And so everything hasn't been resolved and at this point I'm like, eh, I'm just not really interested in spending the next 20 years of my life trying to figure out what all happened in the first 20 years of my life, so. Mm-hmm. Um, and brenna's much more about I figured it out and I'm not doing it again and moving on. And I'm just not as good at that as she is. Mm-hmm. So she's had to work hard, she's worked harder on a lot of this than I have.
Kara: Well, I think it's also, um, generational and time relevant also. Like there's such a different embrace of. Stopping, you know, different generational habits or resolving things. And, you know, there's the, it doesn't matter how incredible of a parent you are, there's, you can't escape being a parent and not traumatizing your kids in some capacity because it's part of the human experience. So I think it's really interesting to be like, all [00:37:00] right, let's see how we're gonna screw these kids up. 'cause we don't know, we're not trying on purpose.
Brenna: You gotta submit to it.
Kathy: Yep. We'll see how it all shakes out and
Brenna: yeah. You, you just gotta accept that you're human. I mean, that's also a part of, that's the great part about this, is like becoming, I started this with her when I was 22, 21. So I started, oh, my mom's a human being. Like, she's been through stuff. She's doing her best. She's doing this for the first time too. So, um, all that that comes with adulthood was something I sort of realized in the midst of trying to. Watch her work and learn from her and all of these things as well. So, but yeah, you're right. It's very, it's all part of the, the human journey.
Kathy: Well, and I wasn't gonna have kids because I watched everybody else's kids and I thought either they're heathens and I, I can't tolerate that, or I'm gonna screw 'em up. And I've talked to so many friends who felt the same way. A lot of 'em who haven't had kids, 'cause they were for their dysfunctional childhood. And the single best decision I made was to have kids. I [00:38:00] wouldn't, of everything I've done in my life, it was the, it's, it's the thing that makes my life have meaning. She has to put up with me the bumps in the road.
Kara: When you hear the words powerful in ladies, what do those words mean to you? And do the definitions change when they're next to each other?
Brenna: Oh, I absolutely think the definitions change when they're next to each other. I think when power, when power is talked about. It's sort of talked about in this way of conquering, like overcoming these outside people or forces to rise up into power. And I think when, when I think about it in regards to a woman having power and being powerful, it's more in the sense of a really deep inter interconnectedness with oneself, right? It's not extrinsic, it's intrinsic. Like I, I don't know about you, but I've never met a more formidable [00:39:00] being, um, than a woman who knows herself. So that to me is, I don't know if that's uniquely female, but it feels, when I connect with those two words, that's what it feels like because that's inner resilience, inner strength that comes from within and it has nothing to do with what's going on outside of you other than what motivates you, what lights your fire, and what drives you.
Kathy: And it might have shaped you. Yeah, right. I'm thinking of a couple of our friends who have been through it. And their phoenixes Yes. From the ashes. Yeah. And that's, that's how I look at it as well. And, and I do think it's very different. Powerful versus powerful ladies is a very, um, different adjectives in my mind for that.
Kathy: Yeah. Great. Yeah.
Kara: What are habits or rituals that you guys know you need to like, have your best day, week? Fill in the blank.
Brenna: I am big on [00:40:00] setting myself. I'm really prone to anxiety, to depression. I, I'm open about that. I work really hard to keep my head on straight so that I can be at my best and feel my best. I wanna enjoy my life, even if it's busy with work or whatever. I wanna be happy and enjoy it. And so. A lot of that comes with my morning is the most important thing. If I'm getting up, I'm walking, I'm seeing the sun, I'm moving my body, um, some sort of activity or workout, um, time that is just for me. I grew up spending a lot of time with friends, trying to show up in the best way possible and was really a people pleaser. And what that turned into was shirking my own needs for other peoples. And so in my older kind of adult life, it has been my needs have to be paramount and then the rest will. And so that all of my rituals to have a good day, to be a good agent, to be a good advocate, all of that starts with [00:41:00] taking care of myself. So that's why,
Kathy: and sadly, I'm exactly the opposite. Um, I, we went through the mortgage crisis in 2007, 2008, and, um. I grew up with the Midwestern parents, so you pay everything off. So I used retirement funds, I used everything to do the right thing. You keep those loans paid. Mm-hmm. And there, there was a mental effect on both of us, including Brenna's brother, but there was also this huge piece of shame. So I really spent the last 23, 15 years, um, yeah. Becoming who I was at that point in time. And I still struggle not to work harder, work more survival mode, all those things. And, and I'm, I'm trying to change that now. And I, we just joined a, a gym where there's an infrared sauna, which I love. And, and I love a lot of things. Like, I love an infrared sauna. She really doesn't, other than [00:42:00] animals go estate. And so I'm trying to get back to really taking care of myself and doing some things regularly because that's the last thing I do. Mm-hmm. Um, I will overextend myself, I'll overbook. I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about a client problem, and then I don't sleep for three hours, you name it. She works really hard to take care of herself, and it's a really good example. I, I'm, I'm getting a little better, but I got a long way to go.
Brenna: Well, when you're in, I mean, when you're a single mom, when two kids living in an area like this and you're figuring out whether you're gonna have enough to feed them, like there's some residual effect there. Mm-hmm. And I think the survival mode that, that partially created, all of this is now something that you don't need anymore. And so to figure out how to set that version of you on a bench and walk keep going down your path is hard.
Kathy: Well, and it's, it's interesting because people say, you seem so [00:43:00] calm, because I am way calmer than I was for the last. So many years. Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm less feeling like the avalanche is about to catch up with me and I just move to run faster. Yeah. And, um, and I'm proud of that. I mean, it should be, I'm proud of where we are and what we've come through and the business that we now have. But, but yeah, I'm still, I'm still a little fractured by that.
Kara: No, I, I'm, I'm really glad you brought that up because, so the money stories and the shame that can be tied to it, the accountability that we put on ourselves, the self responsibility, I hear so much of the self responsibility in that story. When we get surprised by life, it's like a key moment, right? Where a story sticks to us and it's hard to shake it off. And I don't think that we discuss enough how. We are like, haven't resolved moments that like [00:44:00] surprised us, freaked us out, and we're like, we are not gonna repeat that again. And it's, it can be so hard to get out of that space because especially around money and security and what it means to like, provide and have the four walls in existence. Um, it drives so many choices that we're making. Um, I know people who get nervous charging what they're worth because they're like, I could never pay someone to do that. And I'm like, you are not the customer. Like, totally you're providing this service. Um, but it's, it's a really interesting conversation about the freedom we give ourselves. Like how do we turn things we're shameful of into things we're proud of because, you know, everything has that, um, the yin and the yang, the two sides of the coin. And the same hustle mode that allows people to be entrepreneurs and make things happen is the same mode that can start going over too far. [00:45:00] And, you know, it's like, when is enough? It's a question I'm asking clients often, like, what does enough look like? When can we give ourselves permission to truly turn off? Um, and then I also believe that it's okay sometimes to be in sprint workaholic mode because we see an opportunity and we have to seize it. Like, I hate the idea of work life balance. Like, it, to me it sounds like I want spring seasonal balance. You're like, what? Like, work is part of our life, but I think that there is a, a flow we can achieve, a prioritization that we can try to focus on. Hmm. Versus we don't need more shame, like,
Kathy: no.
Kara: As as women, we're real good at,
Brenna: we're so good at it, so good at it. But I think you're right. I mean, we, I think in, when I got into the business, I really wanted to work like nine to five. I didn't want to give up my weekends. I, I liked the certainty. We talked about helpers the other day. Yeah. I, I was a helper. That's [00:46:00] how I thought about like our business. Mm-hmm. And I liked the structure. I liked the certainty. I liked getting a paycheck. Like I knew what I could plan for all of this stuff. A lot of it tied back obviously to, to being that out of control when I was a kid. But I think now getting to a place where we can sort of understand and get comfortable with the fact that sometimes we're gonna be at a full sprint.
Brenna: Mm-hmm. And sometimes it's gonna last longer than is comfortable and sometimes it's gonna be easier and we can just ride that wave and get comfortable with both places. Um, that's what balance looks like to me. Mm-hmm. Is having the. Rest to be able to jump at something that comes along and, you know, run way too hard for a little too long.
Brenna: Mm-hmm. Um, so I, I don't know, I think that's something we've gotten to on the same page about before, but we were very not aligned in the beginning 'cause she was again in survival mode and I was kind of like, I'm still want to be a kid. Like it was this interesting, um, dynamic. But, but yes, [00:47:00] I think the shame, especially as women, and I think just the story we tell ourselves about who we are.
Brenna: Like, I have been going through this so much recently in therapy about like, how long am I gonna keep this narrative about myself, about me emotionally, about me financially, about me in business? All of these things, how long am I gonna keep letting those determine the future decisions I make? Mm-hmm. And when am I gonna say, well, maybe, maybe that's not who I am anymore because X, Y, and Z demonstrate that it's not. Mm-hmm. So why am I holding onto that? Think it's safer too. But yeah. I, I find that whole aspect of this, and especially of women in business really interesting. Which is partially why I could Yeah. Ask anyone I sit down with about their childhood.
Kara: Well, and, and I think that that's why it's so important that, that when you are your own business owner, when you're in that entrepreneurial space, you need to be around other people who are like that too. Because we look like crazy people to [00:48:00] those who have chosen a corporate path. Yes. And it's like, yes, some days we get to be on a boat at two o'clock on a Tuesday, other days we're working Saturday nights and we have to give ourselves room to carve whatever that flow looks like to us. And. Both in my way of coaching and in my way of running my own businesses, I'm like, it's all on the table. This is all the stuff we have to do. We've got seven days to do it. How do we wanna divide it up? Yeah. Like there's, so the idea that we're going to have a corporate experience and a nine to five and have insurance and have I, anyone who is believing that story today, I think is who's truly delusional because I don't know anyone that is in a safe corporate environment. And I prefer being able to be nimble and, and rely on myself in the sense of making whatever I want happen happen versus having to like wait [00:49:00] on somebody else. And so it's really interesting to see people's dynamics between like, what's scary, what's risky, what's not. I look at having a corporate job, I'm like, that's real risky.
Brenna: So risky. Yes. I completely agree with you. I think about. If I put myself in that position, what it would feel like to have Just like the ceiling on you. Yes. Yes. Like there's no, you have no control over how far you go. Obviously you can get promotions, but again, that's still like you've got a really bad boss that you disagree with somebody else's discretion.
Brenna: Yeah. You have no control. And, and there's just a limit to what you can do. And I think that's why we've always loved this business is because I got into it thinking there's no limit to how much I can make in these few years to get my college tuition dialed. Right. Yeah. And then obviously I come to realize that's not really what I prioritize anymore, but mm-hmm.
Brenna: There's no, if I have a sick family member, if something happens in my life, I have the capacity to go in and make 10 times the money that I have made prior. [00:50:00] Now it's gonna be, uh, unbelievably hard. Mm-hmm. But I can, if I choose to, which I think feels really, uh, there's a lot of freedom in that
Kathy: I have been self-employed my entire life. Mm-hmm. My father was self-employed. My mom was an RN and then eventually became self-employed. And people will say to me, wow, you're self-employed. I'm not. How do you do that? I don't know how not to do that. Yeah. I, I, I don't know any other way, and I don't want any other way. We take payroll from our corporation now, and that's the most steady income, that I've ever had.
Kathy: I mean, I've had 140,000 bucks commission checks in one month.
Kara: Yeah.
Kathy: And the early two thousands doing something else, but it's just not
Brenna: Yeah.
Kathy: You know, now it's, it's, we see the pipeline, we know how much is happening. Mm-hmm. We can tell where our business is, uh, that the hardest thing about realistic is so many different responsibilities.
Kathy: Yeah. I mean, it's not, it's not one thing. Yeah. And I think that's the harder part, but yeah. I, I. When [00:51:00] she first got in, she was very much looking for a nine to five and you know, I'm going to shut the door and shut the computer. I wanted
Brenna: to be like business Barbie. Like, I was like, I wanna wear my blazer and like, feel like I'm doing something more than managing a bar.
Brenna: But I had no clue. I had no clue what it was gonna, I was the typical agent who gets into the business thinking I'm gonna show homes. I like pretty homes. Mm-hmm. And, and I'm gonna like be a professional. And then, you know, they were like, okay, cold call. And I'm like, oh, okay. This is gonna be harder than I thought.
Kathy: Well, in terms of our relationship, I think both she and her brother came to understand me as an adult. Mm-hmm. Once they saw me in this role. Otherwise, you know, they knew I got phone calls when we were in the call and I'd snap and everybody had to be quiet. She
Brenna: would go to, we would be in Hawaii on vacation.
Brenna: She'd go in the water with her Bluetooth like earpiece in. Huh
Kathy: Movie theaters with my Bluetooth and I was just so accustomed to wearing it to even cross my mind. It wasn't that I was expecting you to call.
Brenna: Yeah.
Kathy: But yeah, it's,
Brenna: we always knew she was like a warrior 'cause she got us through [00:52:00] that time, like we knew. But yeah, it's really cool. Most people don't see their loved ones in these, in these environments. Like I get to see her at a presentation with a new client, like just killing it. And most of the time you don't get that visual of your family or your loved one. So, yeah. It's cool.
Kara: We have, um, one more question or two actually as we wrap up today. Um, and this is for both of you to answer individually. Where would you put yourself on the powerful lady scale? If zero is average everyday human and 10 is the most powerful lady you can imagine, where would you score yourself today and on an average day?
Brenna: Honestly, based on my answer about what a powerful lady is, yeah, five. I'd say five. We're shooting from on any given day? On any given day? A five. I, I feel today, probably a seven because I love, this is like my thing. I love doing this. I love having [00:53:00] these conversations and that's when I feel most myself, which I think is what being a powerful lady is. But yeah, five. On any given day,
Kathy: I would say a six on any given day. But some days I might hit a nine. Yeah. Or I just got it going on and I know it and I'm, yeah. And I'm happy and I'm proud and I'm comfortable. And I don't care if somebody doesn't like my shoes, it doesn't matter, you know? I like that.
Kara: Uh, this is a powerful, connected community. What is something on your to-do list, to manifest list? It can be personal, professional. What is something we can either hold space for you to make happen, or actually go find an answer to help you with something on those lists? What do you want? What do you need?
Brenna: Good question. I have great community in my life. I think I want more community. I wanna look around like I, I follow Cody Sanchez. Yep. Mm-hmm. Are you familiar? Yeah. And I'm like, when I, we saw her speak at a conference recently and I'm like, I'm just in awe of this [00:54:00] woman and I wanna spend more time either watching or being around women like that. Like I have such an abundance of amazing women in my life, but that is what really like lights a fire in me.
Kathy: I am, I would say I'm, it, it's less for me about it being women and it's more about just being people who are just so good at what they do. Then I'm entranced when I'm around them. And it's back to the scheme thing. I'm just better. Yeah. There's just more there and I'm better and, and I want more opportunities to do that. I wanna waste my time less. On, um, minutia. Yeah. You know, as we've kind of talked about organizing your business, my thing is I just wanna have great conversations with people. Mm-hmm. I don't wanna do, I, I don't wanna figure out who's put the smoke detectors in at this point. You know, I want somebody else to do that. 'Cause I wanna spend my time in conversations like this. Yeah. That's how we're headed.
Kara: I love it. Okay, so for everyone who is as obsessed with you guys as I am [00:55:00] and wants to hire you, work with you, support you, invite you to hang out with Cody Sanchez, where can they find, follow and connect with you?
Brenna: So you can follow us on Instagram, Kathy Brenna Real Estate. Uh, we also have a YouTube channel, uh, where you can watch that's getting started, so that's not as much content there, but that is, um, just Kathy and Brenna Real Estate Group as well. Um, and yeah, we have a website, harcourt bluewater.com. Um, so you can find a ton of information about our business, the way we work, um, and just pretty much anything you could ask us. There's information on that website. So those would be the three places I'd say.
Kara: Great. And for, you know, I don't normally follow and recommend following realtors on social media, but you guys create incredible content that is fun and informative and you're just crushing it in that space. So, um, it's not boring real estate content at all. Like everyone listening should be following you as soon as possible. Not only thank you to see what you're, to consume, what you're making, but to also [00:56:00] learn tricks for their own businesses, uh, and how you're approaching it. Thank you guys so much for being a yes to me, to being in my circle in real life, to being a yes to this podcast and sharing your wisdom with us today. Um, I am huge fans of you guys and I'm so thankful that I've met you. So thank you for being a Yes.
Brenna: Well, that means so much. Thank you for having us. We adore you and, uh, we're so glad we got to do this today. We're honored to have been asked. Thank you.
Kathy: Thanks very much, Kara. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to The Powerful Ladies Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please subscribe. Leave us a review or share it with a friend. Head to the powerful ladies.com. We can find all the links To connect with today's guest show notes, discover like episodes, enjoy bonus content and more.
Speaker 3: We'll be back next week with a brand new episode and new amazing guest. Make sure you're following us on Instagram or Substack at Powerful ladies. To get the [00:57:00] first preview of next week's episode, you can find me and all my socials @karaduffy.com. This is a Powerful Ladies production produced by Jordan Duffy and Amanda Kass.
Speaker 3: Until then, I hope you're taking on being powerful in your life. Go be awesome and up to something you love.
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Email: Kathy@HarcourtsBlueWater.com | Brenna@HarcourtsBlueWater.com
Created and hosted by Kara Duffy
Audio Engineering & Editing by Jordan Duffy
Production by Amanda Kass
Graphic design by Anna Olinova
Music by Joakim Karud
