Episode 152: How Our Relationships Impact Our Potential | Dr. Andrea Liner | The Breakup Doc
Dr. Andrea Liner, known as The Breakup Doc, is a licensed clinical psychologist and relationship coach helping people navigate breakups and build the relationships they truly want. In this conversation, she shares how our romantic and personal connections influence everything from our career success to our long-term happiness. We talk about knowing when it’s time to leave, how to evaluate your relationship honestly, and why the quality of your connections is the foundation for your potential.
“Our relationships are core to our being. The ripple effect from our relationships impacts our business relationships, our earning potential, where we’ll be in 5, 10, plus years. Our relationships are not the cherry on top, but the meat & potatoes from which our lives are centered.”
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Follow along using the Transcript
Chapters
00:00 – Opening & Introduction to Dr. Andrea Liner
02:00 – How she became The Breakup Doc
05:00 – From therapy to coaching: Why she made the shift
08:00 – Setting boundaries and protecting your own energy
11:00 – Turning off “therapist mode” in personal life
12:30 – The reality of friend breakups
14:00 – Myths about powerful women and relationships
16:00 – Letting go of the idea that decisions are permanent
18:00 – Starting her own practice at 26
20:00 – Surprises from launching her coaching business
22:00 – Why having multiple coaches and mentors matters
23:00 – How to know if it’s time to end a relationship
26:00 – Falling in love with potential vs. reality
27:30 – Why your relationship should be easy at the start
29:00 – Relationships as the foundation for success
31:00 – How Dr. Liner screens and selects clients
34:00 – Saying goodbye in therapy vs. coaching
35:00 – How long should you work with a therapist or coach?
38:00 – Gently surfacing what clients can’t see
39:00 – Goals for 2022: Growing the coaching side of her work
40:00 – The role of community and supportive peers
42:00 – Entrepreneurship and friendship shifts
44:00 – How to connect with Dr. Andrea Liner
Assuming a sense of permanence where it, there isn't. Um, people feel like, if I leave this job, if I take this job, if I move here, if I say yes to the state, whatever, that there's gonna be some ripple effect permanency to it. And I love to remind my clients, so therapy and coaching clients that it's not permanent.
That's Dr. Andrea Liner and this is The Powerful Ladies Podcast.
Hey guys, I'm Kara Duffy, a business coach and entrepreneur on a mission to help you live your most extraordinary life. By showing you anything is possible. People who have mastered freedom, ease, and success, who are living their best and most ridiculous lives are often people you've never heard of until now.
Today's guest is someone whose phone number I wish I had prior to today. I would've called her many times over the past couple of decades. Dr. Andrea Aligner is a therapist and relationship coach, known as the breakup doc. Who helps you ditch the bad relationships and great space for your best relationships?
Yes, please get ready for some of the best advice.
Welcome to the Powerful Ladies Podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Before we dive into all the juicy things that we get to talk about today, please tell everybody your name, where you are and what you're up to.
Yeah, absolutely. So I am Dr. Andrea Liner, the breakup doc coming to you from just outside Denver, Colorado.
And I am a licensed clinical psychologist and a breakup coach. So I have a private practice and I help people through their breakups.
Well, I have so many questions about what you do, but first, um, obviously Denver Boulder just had all those crazy wildfires. Were you in that side of Denver or were you on the other side?
We are on the other
side. We are south of Denver. Mm-hmm. But that all hits very close to home. And our, the places I've been a million times, I know people from there. Luckily, I don't know anyone in my immediate circles affected, but it's, um, it's a, a kind of sad vibe around here right now.
Yeah. Uh, I had two friends that had to, um, kind of flee last minute as far as I know their homes and everyone's fine, but it's so sad to, like, it's such a beautiful area and to see that happen and around the holidays, it just makes it worse.
Yeah,
absolutely.
Well, let's get to the juicy stuff because everyone who's listening when they heard you say that you're a break of a coach, I'm sure 1,000,001 things went off in their head. Yeah. So my first question is. You know, finding your niche no matter what business you have, is so hard and people always tell you to do it and you're like, how do I even know where to start?
I just began like, I don't know who my people are. So what was your journey to realizing that breakups and calling yourself the breakup coach? Like how did you get there? Yes. So
I, it's been in the works for a long time. It only has officially come into being in the last few months, but I really credit.
Where I am in life to a horrible breakup that I had about seven years ago. And um, at the time I was getting my doctorate in clinical psychology. And my plan was always just be a psychologist, have a private practice, do that. And while I was in my training, the final year of the doctoral program, we do an internship that.
It's a much more mild version, but the parallel I tell people is it's kind of like a residency in medical school. So you, you apply to a bunch of places and you get matched and they just tell you where you're going. Um, so I was working at a counseling center, um, a university counseling center at Catholic University of America in DC where I did my doctorate, um, at George Washington.
And the Univers thought it would just be so funny to give me 90% of my caseload that year be people going through breakups. While I was going through my breakup. Oh. So
it's very great that the universe being like, oh, you got that. Here's more.
Yes, absolutely. So it was this transformative year where I was doing my own healing, but I was helping people through something that I was also going through, which actually in a way, prepared me for the pandemic because that was a time that a lot of therapists talked about.
It's so weird to be going through the same thing that we're helping our clients through. Um. But it just really, it helped me. I kind of formulated this process. I started thinking about things in a very specific way, and so I naturally gravitated towards that clientele when I opened up my own practice.
And so for the last almost six years, a big chunk of my therapy caseload with people with either they were in relationships that weren't working for them anymore, they were trying to decide if they wanted to stay or get out, or they were going through a breakup. And it makes sense. I see people mostly in their twenties and early thirties.
Time of life rife with all of that. Um, but I realized over the pandemic. I'm a little, um, I don't wanna say bore, that's the wrong word, but I, I needed something new. Yeah. Um, therapy is very regulated, very ethically and legally protected. There's, there's so much red tape, you can only see people in your state.
There's just rules, rules, rules, which are there for good reason. But, um, I got the idea that if I branched into the coaching world, I could focus exclusively on breakups and have a lot more flexibility and latitude. And it's.
The idea was born and here I am making it happen.
Well, and there's been so much pressure put on relationships through the pandemic as well. It was like a perfect, again, universal alignment where you're like, oh, everyone now has to deal with realities of being stuck with somebody on a virtual life raft.
Let's see how this goes. Yes.
Yes, and I mean 2020 especially, but also into this past year, breakups were happening left and right because high stress people in close quarters together, people who might have committed too early, um, because that, that was the stage they were in when quarantine hit all those issues.
Yes, it was important to have your quarantine buddy, but. After a year when you're like, oh, this will end anytime now and it hasn't. It's a different perspective.
Yes, absolutely.
I actually have a lot of people who I've interacted with as a business coach who have done a similar path as you have gone from, they, they are licensed therapists and they're like, I can't help my people in all the ways that I know that I can.
Mm-hmm. And I think that's a really interesting dynamic of what's happening with therapy. I mean, there's been. So much shift of online therapy and things. You can get through an app on your phone, which I think is fabulous. So it is easier and more available. But to your point of all the, I'm glad there are rules and when the commitment is to help people in, in the way that you know how, for you, it must be so frustrating to be kind of kept in this box when you're like, mm, like.
How do you, are you like, Hey, call me on my coaching hotline? 'cause I can tell you the answer over there.
I know it's tempting. Um, I do, you know, try to keep my businesses very separate and not have clients cross over because again, the ethics of my license, I don't wanna lose my license by any means. I don't wanna do anything wrong, but absolutely.
I mean, in the coaching world, first of all, I get to be more of a three dimensional human in traditional therapy. And I was trained very traditionally, like. That kind of.
Supposed to be this blank slate. You're not supposed to talk about yourself. You're not supposed to emote or show too much on your face. And that's so opposite of my personality. Um, so feeling really constrained in those ways. And in therapy, we're really not supposed to tell people what to do. We help people come to their own conclusions about things through very, um, very selective questioning and, and reflecting and all of that.
But in coaching. It's actually allowed me to be like, yeah, I think you need to get outta that relationship and we don't have to beat around the bush for for months. It hoping they come to their own conclusion on that. So that's just been such a breath of fresh air.
What do you do to protect yourself when you're in those situations where you're, you're walking with people in some of their deepest, darkest, most vulnerable places?
What do you do to protect yourself before a therapy session or a coaching session so that you don't take all that home with you?
Yes, I get this.
I think part of it is practice, um, and the compartmentalization of it. So this is where it got really tricky in the first part of the pandemic, before, um, we bought our house, we were in an apartment, um, but just having a physical space. To go into, do therapy and then leave it, um, is very helpful. So just kind of physically, I close the door at the end of the day, which is nice.
Um, I enga, I use a lot of humor as my favorite kind of coping mechanisms. So between sessions, I'm looking at memes, I'm watching YouTube clips. I'm, I'm catching up with friends for a couple minutes. Um, just anything to kind of lighten the mood for sure. Um, and a big one too is as most therapists do and should, I have my own therapist.
So, um, there's a lot of processing and kind of what I call ringing out the emotional sham. Wow. You remember that infomercial from years ago? Um, that I do on a weekly basis. Um, and I have consultation with peers and colleagues, so mm-hmm. A lot of support. Um, but it is a lonely field because of confidentiality.
Like, I can't talk to my husband at the end of the day about my work, um, legally. So I have to rely on my therapist, my colleagues, consultation, and kinda my own coping mechanism.
Yeah, it must be. Being someone who, you know, occurs within a few minutes of this, you know, interview of being so open and happy, that must be the hardest part of being like you.
'cause you wanna be able to celebrate your victories and you're like, today was a great day. And I can't tell you why.
Exactly. Exactly. And like, I'll tell him like, oh, I have a harder, a harder day today. Heavier topic. Like, okay, he tries to be accommodating, but that's really all I can share.
I know for me it's, you know, I get caught up in trying not to coach myself through situations.
And I have my own, I have a coach, right? As a coach, I have a coach. Mm-hmm. And I have to remember to like turn it off and not try to coach myself through situations sometimes. And being a relationship oriented therapist and coach, how do you remember to turn that off when you go back to your own relationship?
Uh, sometimes it's harder than others, but I will say it's been easier than I expected because it's so exhausting. It's because when I'm in therapy mode, I'm zoned in. I'm listening to everything you're saying. I'm paying attention to body language. I'm remembering things. You said three sessions ago. I'm drawing parallels, making connections, making things.
It's very energy intensive. It and just stop thinking about it so intensely. Mm-hmm. Um, which is, which is really nice. And I've also done. A good job, I think, of curating the people in my life. I, not that I wouldn't be friends with someone who is going through something horrible, it happens, but I think in general, I surround myself with people who are, um, psychologically healthy, who have their own coping mechanisms who aren't as much, um.
The kind of friend who's always looking to, to vent and dump, which is helpful.
Yeah. AKA people who aren't drama tornadoes.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's taken years and some trial and error to figure out who those people are. Well,
I saw a great, uh, TikTok the other day about, you know, people in their women in their forties having a discussion about what it looks like to grieve and accept the breakup of friendships.
Because we forget, we think that we get to keep people forever, whether we're dating them or married to them or not. And to accept that people have periods in your life no matter what their relationship is with you, where it's okay to let them go for your own health, you know? Yeah. What, what advice do you give people, you know, beyond the intimate relationship breakup?
Just the general breakup, um, you know, what would you say in alignment with the. Having friends come in and out of your life?
I'd say I, I just wish that as a collective, as a society, like we don't even have a term for a friend breakup in our language. Um, I'm not sure if other languages do, I wouldn't be surprised if German has it.
They have so many cool words, but, um, but we don't, as a culture, I mean, if we don't even have a word for it, it's really hard to comprehend it. I would like us to shift into the mentality that we, we change and evolve and morph throughout our lifetime, as should our relationships. And that's, mm-hmm. Just normal to look at it as a normal thing, just like fashions come and go.
Just like, you know, trends come and go. So can relationships and depending on the, the direction you're taking, the things going on in your life, you just might not click with someone in the same way. And I think there's also so much gray area that people forget to explore. Where I've had people go from being a best friend, someone I talk to multiple times a day, to someone where we kind of keep up with each other on social media and check in about the big steps.
And that feels better because, you know, we've changed kind of ethically, morally life phase lies, whatever it might be. And that's a comfortable place to keep that relationship. Mm-hmm. It doesn't always have to be this dramatic, you know, cutoff. We're no longer friends goodbye out of my life. Sometimes that's narrative, depending if, if something really happened, but there's so many shades of gray that we can look at in terms of all our relationships.
Well, of course there is the stereotype, you know, being a podcast called Powerful Ladies, that powerful, successful women usually fail in one area, and that's called relationships. Mm-hmm. It is such, you know, I could go on and on and on about how that is such bs and there's ties to patriarchy and all sorts of nonsense of where that's coming from.
Um, but do you see those trends yourself as a therapist and how can we break that cycle?
You know, it's such an interesting phenomenon. I see it somewhat, but with this grain of salt that I think it's a personality type based thing, not a being powerful or entrepreneurial or ambitious people. I think people who tend to be a little more self-focused might self-select for a career that's a little bit more power oriented.
Mm-hmm. And if they're a self-focused person, that's likely to bleed into their relationship. So I think it's kind of, you know, correlation doesn't imply causation a little bit.
Yes. Yep. Um,
because I also see women, especially, and I love this term, kind of more heart centered entrepreneurial endeavors.
Mm-hmm. Um, where they're high compassion, high empathy, um, really looking to heal people and they don't experience the same issues. And if they do, oftentimes it stems from the other people in their life who just don't understand. The journey that they're on journey or why they've decided to veer from the traditional nine to five or motherhood kind of options.
In the perspective that I have with the clients that I work with and women who are in the Thrive membership, we're always looking at like being more brave and stepping into being brave and knowing that. Everything that we want is just there, right? Like it's every, they're so close. And particularly in a relationship, especially if I look back at some of mine, like there's always the same fears that show up for should I take this leap in this other area of my life or always the same ones, right?
Is it the wrong choice? Is it, um, is it all gonna fall apart after this? I mean, walking away from, you know, the best relationship I'm ever gonna have, or the best job I'm ever gonna have. It's a lot of the same tones, you know? What are some of the themes that you see with women that you wish that they could just like get, like let go of?
Yeah. The biggest one I think is people. Assuming a sense of permanence where there isn't, um, people feel like, if I leave this job, if I take this job, if I move here, if I say yes to the state, whatever, that there's gonna be some ripple effect permanency to it. And I love to remind my clients, both therapy and coaching clients that.
It's not permanent. Mm-hmm. You can change your job again, you can shift careers, you can change relationships, you can change cities that, you know, short of dying or, you know, committing a crime that would land you in jail for the rest of your life. Mm-hmm. Pretty much everything has changed as a possibility, so don't get too stuck in feeling like the decision you're making today is forever.
Yeah. It's funny how we hang out in a space of thinking we're so powerful, but then not acting like we're so powerful. Yeah,
absolutely.
So, you know, when you were looking at coming out of school and the the life that you wanted, how did having your own practice like filter into what worked for you, designing your life?
Yeah. You know, it's funny, I kind of ended up with my own practice right away outta necessity. Uh, I wasn't planning on going out on my own so quickly, and I was really young. Um, I started my doctoral program right out of undergrad and I was already young for my year, so I started at 21 and graduated at 25.
And did a postdoc for a year. So I moved back to Denver when I was 26 and I didn't feel ready. Um, yeah. And I think now with so much more content out there to support, especially female entrepreneurs, I might have felt more ready. Mm-hmm. But at the time, I wasn't tapped into any of that, so I thought I'd work for one of the local university counseling centers for a while.
Maybe build up my practice on the side and once I reached a tipping point, do that more permanently. The way a lot of women kind of stick with their nine to five while they, they build on the side until it feels big enough to to leave. That was always my plan. Nowhere was hiring. I knew I wanted to be in the Denver area.
Everyone was staffed up. So it was either work for someone else doing what I would do on my own eventually anyway, or just go for it. Um, and I had a lot of support financially and relationally luckily, um, that I was very, very blessed to have. Um, but I think it really kicked off my feeling like a real grownup because at the time, you know, when, when you're still a student at 25, you know, it's hard to feel.
You're a full fledge grownup. So I think it helps with that. And it really just paved this path that once you're out of school and once you're outta a kind of a, a scene where there are a lot of parameters in place, the world really is your oyster and there's so many opportunities and possibilities. And so I think it set me on this path of a really possibility that I don't know if I would've had otherwise.
What surprised you the most now that you've switched or added onto your, um, you know, business pillars, having this coaching arm, what surprised you the most?
I think how much I like it. I, I think I was nervous because originally, and I, like I mentioned, I went to a very, I was trained very traditionally, um, in psychology and there is some.
I don't know what's the right word? Bias, I think against other, um, healing professions. Um, kind of like we went to school for all this time, we paid all this money for our degrees, and people are just waking up one day and deciding they wanna be a coach. This is unfair. It's unethical. Mm-hmm. There is some of that, but I really think that I, I have come.
The value of it all, the diversity and possibility within the coaching field, and that there really are things that are just better suited for coaching than therapy. Mm-hmm. Um, like therapy, if you wanna use your insurance, you have to have a diagnostic code. Not all of my clients meet diagnostic criteria for a diagnosis.
They just have a life circumstance going on. Mm-hmm. So why, why go that model where there's, you know, a, a paper trail with insurance and everything, why not do something more private, more mm-hmm. More focused? Um. And that surprised me. I think I, I, I think if you had asked me five years ago what I thought of the coaching world, would I ever join it?
I would've been a little bit on my high horse about it. Yeah. Today
I'm not. I'm glad for that shit. Well, and there's so many types of coaches too, right? Like mm-hmm. What I think has been really cool about the digital learning and knowledge sharing space opening up is. There's so much possibility for people who have knowledge to pass it on.
Right. And it's, I, in society, at least in Western society, there's been this breakdown of passing knowledge on, and the apprenticeship has gone away. The, you know, the wise elder in the community isn't respected the same way that it used to be. So I think there's this interesting gap being filled where people want mentors, they want guides.
It's so much easier and faster not to do it by yourself. Yeah, and I, I think I like that some of the, the strong passionate individuality of like, I'll do it on my own. And I'm always like, no, you should have like 10 coaches. Like, yeah, anything you wanna be successful in, like, where's your coach for, for business, for fitness, for, you know, where's your therapist?
Where's like, you know, we, the more that we, I think broaden our circle of who, how can we pull in expertise? Um, it's so overwhelming otherwise to try and live a, like 360 fulfilled life. Yeah. When we're like, I have to know it all and figure it all out and, woo, that sounds heavy and hard and no thank you.
Yes, it takes a village. You can, you can stock your village with as many supports and mentors as you want. Yeah, exactly.
Um, so of course, you know, everyone would be so upset if in this episode we didn't discuss some strategies for knowing if you're in a good relationship or not. You have some amazing resources on your Instagram account.
Um, but let's just start with that question. How can people evaluate the relationship they're in to know if it's. Uh, worth fighting for, or if it's time to bounce? Yes.
I love this question. Um, and I, I offer a, I call it breakup diagnosis, where I go into this with people for like an intensive kind of session and, and the things that I have people think about.
One is why are you in the relationship? This sounds like such a basic question. Um, but really why? What are the underlying motives and when you really break it down? A lot of women that I work with and men too, but this one's a little bit bit more for the women. Um, a lot of it's because, well, we've been dating for.
Several years since college. I'm already in my mid to late twenties. I, I, I have to be married by a certain age. I want kids by a certain age. So, you know, that's just how the timeline kind up. And I guess, I guess I to stay here and not start over because. I'd mess up my timeline. Um, that's something I, I hear a lot once we actually kind break it down.
Um, and sometimes it's, um, especially in the of social media, it looks good kind of symbol. Be in a relationship when, when someone. I vehemently. But in our culture, um, it's kind of looked at what's wrong with you're there, you'll get, there'll find someone's kind of, people are less when they're single.
People wanna that. Mm-hmm. Um, so those are some kind of negative reasons that people say in relationships. If their answers are things like, you know, this person makes me feel my best. They help me improve on a regular basis. They bring happiness to my life, they challenge me. I can't imagine life without them.
So some of it's that logistical piece. Um, I also have people kind of consider, you know, how do you feel when you're with them and how do you feel when you're without them? I end up talking to people where they, it turns out through conversations, they actually don't like their partner. When they're together, they're annoyed, they're rolling their eyes, they're cringing, they're, you know, backing off from them.
But when they're away from their partner, they romanticize it. They post on Instagram, oh, I love my baby. So great. Um, all these things. So some of it's like an impression management type thing. So I would say like, do you feel as good when you're with them? When you're without them? And vice versa, if you feel great when you're with them, but you're constantly anxious about what they're doing, who they're with, when you're not with them.
That's not a good sign either. So there should be a parallel to how you feel with them, without them, and it should be mostly positive. Um, that's a big one. Um, and another big one is how much time are you spending making justifications? The relationship, relationship. Something I'll hear a lot is any version of starting a sentence with, well, at least he blank.
Or, well, it's not like he blank, or really anything that starts with, well, and how often are you doing that, and are you doing that to yourself? Are you doing that to people around you? Are you trying to make it feel like something it's not, are you, are you being accurate with how you're portraying it and thinking about it?
Um, when the answer to that is no, you know, I, I don't really. I guess that you're justifying a lot. Um, that means that there might be something wrong in the relationship. And then also just comes down to let's reassess basic values and goals. Mm-hmm. And maybe when you meet someone at 22, 23 and you think you want the same thing at 27, 28, 32, that's gonna look a little bit different.
And are you still on the same track with each other? It's absolutely possible to grow together, but we also know, you know, a little math reminder, two points if they start veering even ever so slightly over time, end up really far away from each other. So just reassessing. Is this still someone who's on the same path as you?
I know as a myself, I'm so good at falling in love with the possibility of someone. Yes. And this is a great skill as a coach because I'm like. I can see it like it's right there. You can do this. Right. It helps that cheerleader side of motivating people and like showing people how amazing they are and getting through things.
But in my own life, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Did I just fall in love with you? Your possibility? Because that possibility is not real yet. Yes.
That is such an important point and something I talk to clients about. It tends to happen. Unfortunately, it's hazard of the trade, I guess. But for people who are very openhearted, open-minded, compassionate, empathetic, um, you know, the empath of the world really tend to see people's potential.
And, and we can get hurt that way, um, because potentials great. But at a certain point, you've gotta see are are they approaching the potential? Are they making any strides towards it? And that's something, you know, great reminder that something I talked about with clients too is have you been holding out for major change with your partner?
That just hasn't happened. And now it's been one year, two year, three years. Yeah. It's probably not gonna happen at this point. And maybe it's time to to, yeah,
I know. And I always look at some of, um. The relationships I've had or my friends have had, and I'm like, I think that there is a lot to say about arranged marriages.
Like there's when, when you know, and I guess I'm the romanticized view, right, of like the people who care about you the most. If they're making choices for you, they're not gonna see all the nonsense that we put between us and reality.
Yes, absolutely. And, and something I forgot to say before is especially when you're younger and life hasn't gotten as complicated, maybe there's not a mortgage, there's no children, there's no aging parents to take care of.
You know, you're still in kind of a simpler time of life. It should be easy. Your relationship should be easy. This is probably the easiest it's ever gonna be. And if there's already tension and stress in the relationship, and you're already having to make it work before all those life variables come into play.
That doesn't necessarily bode well.
Yeah, and I just, I love the fact that there are so many parallels between all the parts of our lives, right? Like we, we tend to com over compartmentalize. 'cause the same guiding questions and the same guiding feelings are show up all the time. Right. I guess it goes back to that how we do one thing, we do everything and, um.
If the, if our savings account is not adding up and the relationship is not adding up, you know, it's, it's the truest parts of, of life and being human tend to show up everywhere. And so I, this, it's reassuring to me because it, I think, gives me reminders of like, oh yeah, no, it's, we should look at it the same way as something else.
Yeah. I think especially for people who. Really value having a partner and a family and can't imagine life without that. We put so much more extra significance on the relationships that we would never put on on a job. Right. I've had friends leave jobs and be like, oh, I didn't realize it was an abusive relationship with that company for so long.
Mm-hmm. And you know, how, how can we break free from treating relationships differently than we treat other parts of our lives that matter to us?
Such a good question. I really, and this kind of comes to the core of why I'm so passionate about this work, is that evolutionarily, biologically, we're social creatures.
We're a social species. And if you look at primates, which we are part of that collective, you know, they're not out there building fortune 500 companies. They're trying to figure out how to stay safe and feed each other and procreate and keep the species going. And at our core, that's what we're about. So remembering that our relationship.
Our core and central to our being and the ripple effects from our relationships will fan out and touch our business relationships, our income, our mm-hmm. Physical health, all of it. So viewing relationships not as this extra, not gravy on top, but really as the meat and potatoes of our lives. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, I've seen this with people, especially my male clients who tend to be a little more career oriented, that once they get a handle on their relationships.
Things really fall into place and they start noticing success as a ripple effect of working on their relationship.
Well, there's always great statistics that, um, people who are more successful and um, have larger bank accounts, you know, whatever you wanna measure success on, whether it's uh, levels in corporate life, your title, your bank account, they all tend to align with.
Are you married? And it's, I'm really curious to right about the cause versus effect causation versus correlation. 'cause as you said, if you get the foundation working, other things do too. It's like cleaning up your integrity with whatever's going on in your life. Suddenly all, yeah, it all starts to work.
Um, but yeah, there, there's something to be said about figuring that part out and I love how you. You know, remind everybody to flip it. Don't make it be the cherry, make it be the pie pan that everything else mm-hmm. Is on top of.
Mm-hmm. Yes, absolutely.
So when people are coming to you and they're looking to, you know, work with you, either as a therapist or as a coach, um, are you sorting them?
Are they, are they coming to you through different paths? Like, how are you making sure that your dream clients are getting put into the right places?
Yeah, so I still have a very hands-on approach. I haven't really outsourced or automated this part of my business, and I'm not sure I ever will as long as I'm doing one-on-one work.
Um, usually people find me either through word of mouth or they're referred to me by another mental health professional who couldn't take them on for whatever reason or mm-hmm. Um, or they find me online and I always have, um, at least between a 15 and 30 minute phone screen with people. Just make sure, you know, not only do I wanna work with them, but.
Can I be the help that they need? Mm-hmm. And that's part of the ethics code from therapy that I bring into coaching where, you know, just because someone's willing to pay me doesn't mean that it's a fit. Um mm-hmm. That I wanna make sure I, I'm gonna give them what they need in the best way possible. So I always have conversations with people first, and I, I rarely have had to say, I don't think this is a fit.
And if I do, it's usually because it's a scope of competency type that's. Very good at, and I'd rather hook you up with someone who's better at that. Um, but for the most part, I've been really lucky that I guess whatever I have positioned online, mostly people who find me are great fits and, and people that in the coaching world I'd like to maintain friendships with.
And in the therapy world, sometimes I wish I could be friends with them. That's a no known in therapy land.
Yeah, I've had, um, a good friend and a client who, um, has been a therapist for many years, and she's like, that's the hardest part. Like, you work with these people over time and you create these, you know, relationships with them.
Obviously a professional one, and then the therapy end and you're like, oh, I wonder how they're doing. And like, it's okay. Like, like I'd love to be friends with them. And you're like, oh, this is the worst part.
I know. I always, I liken it to, you're in the middle of a really great novel. And then someone takes it away from you and you can't find it anywhere, and you just don't get to find out how the story ends.
And that just pulled out all of my heartstrings being such a reader that I was, I'd be like, wait, what? Um, I love as a coach, and I say this to my people regularly, like I'm a keeper. Like I, um, there are very few people that I've exiled from, from my space and, um, being heart led and heart-centered in what I'm doing, like.
Whether you are an active client or not, like you're still on my mental client roster. Like I'm still sending them things, I'm still following up. Um, I couldn't imagine having to be like, okay, it's done. Bye. Like, I think it would give me anxiety if I had to be like, oh my God, are they okay? Like, all of my maternal instincts would be firing so good on you that you can control that because.
Um, you need an award just for that. I think,
I know that's, that's the hardest part, I think is when we end, and I do, I do see people long term, but I have, I have some clients I've known longer than my own husband, which is funny. Um, and amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I hope that I never have to say goodbye to them, but if the time comes, we'll cross that bridge.
Yeah.
Well, a lot of people ask, and this this comes up when, you know, new clients are having a call with me, I'm sure it does with you, is like. When does it end? Mm-hmm. So how do you answer that question for a client?
Oh, so, so pertinent right now, because as therapist we just got hit with, um, the No Surprises Act that came into play of January 1st.
It's a billing act that we now are required because we're considered healthcare providers. It's designed to help people not have surprise outta network costs come up. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's very well intentioned, but we're being told that we have to have a document now. How many sessions we think they're gonna need and estimate it out and in our ethics code.
Like we can't really do that because we dunno. Yeah. So how could you, right. So we're, we're all kind of, um, in my circle fighting. A little bit, little, but it's gotten us talking about like, how do we estimate this? And the way that I was taught and the way I talk to my clients about it, I say it really depends on what you're looking for.
There are different types of therapy as in different types of coaching. And sometimes, um, you know, someone's coming in for an issue that they want clarity on, they wanna feel resolved on it, maybe four to eight sessions. Maybe that's it. Um, and my coaching packages, you know, they start at a more intensive, six sessions for a month or four sessions for a month.
And then you can repeat that if you'd like. Um, but in therapy land, I have some clients and they're like, I just want this to be part of my regular self care. I just want to keep this, as long as our relationship is good and I feel like I'm learning and getting something out of it. Mm-hmm. I will do this as long as you're in business.
And then I have people who start with a more short term issue and then we realize there's a lot more under the surface. Mm-hmm. And they get really into it. And they love having the space, they love learning about themselves or something new happens, or they enter a new phase of life or whatever. That just keeps it going.
So, you know, I check in with clients about that, but I really leave them in the driver's seat, um, because it's their time and money that's at stake. Yeah.
Yeah. Very similar in my world. And, but secretly, we all know there's always something underneath. Always. Always. Yeah. Always, always. I love when people come and they, you know, it's, it's very human, right?
We, we don't see what's underneath it all. So we're like, I think I have a problem with selling, or I think I have this, and you're like. I do my best on my intro calls, like, yep, that could be a thing. We can work on that. Meanwhile, my head's going, oh, I bet this is under it. And this is under it. I'm sure you are in the same space.
Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. I have a, a supervisor in grad school. I have this amazing analogy that I now teach, um, my interns and supervisees that I help. We call it the eyebrow wax conundrum, where, I dunno if you've ever gone to a nail salon where you know you're getting the manicure and they're like, oh, and an eyebrow wax or like, and a lip wax and you didn't come in there for that and you're like kind of offended that they would even suggest that.
Yes. And we, we try not to do that to our clients. So. So it's, you know, they're coming in for one thing. We can gently say like, Hey, have you ever considered that this might be a thing to work on, but mm-hmm. We also don't wanna blindside people who think they're coming in for one thing and say, actually I'm noticing X, Y, Z going on for you.
Yeah. There are ways to finesse that in a way that feels good for clients, but we don't wanna blindside them with that because then they might feel offended and not wanna come back.
And it can completely shift their world. Right. If you're like, actually you've been wearing your clothes backwards this whole time, they'd be like, what?
Um, it's, yeah. It's, it's, some things are such in somebody's blind spot that even just to point it out, you know, you don't wanna be causing trauma.
Yes. And that's something I'm really glad for my clinical training, um, bringing into the coaching world because we're kind of taught how to assess for that.
How to assess their level of awareness and readiness, how to kind of craft our wording to gently nudge them in a way that's gonna feel authentic and in alignment for them.
Yeah, I like that. Well, as you go into 2022 and things are shifting and you are, you know, in the groove for this whole new brand new year, what are you excited about and kind of where are you focusing?
So this is the year that I'm really hoping to have my coaching practice kind of usurp my therapy practice in a way. So I'm focusing much more on the coaching stuff, um, starting the year with really ramping up my, uh, one-on-one coaching with people. But I'm also working on a course. That will hopefully also be a group coaching program at some time.
Just really trying to reach as many people as possible who are going through any kind of heartache. Whether it just happened and they're drowning or it happened a while ago, but they're finding that it's really sorting their efforts to find new of and connections, um, really spreading this. This message and these skills, because like I said, I think it's the foundation for the rest of the pieces of life.
And I think if people do this work, they, they'll find success in so many more areas.
And I love that you speak to the group element. And I know that I couldn't be anywhere that I am without the people who guided me along this way. And, you know, my circle of friends and people who've inspired me. Um, how have the people in your life allowed you to get to where you are today?
Oh gosh. Well, I'm gonna try not to cry. I feel like I, this might make me tear up at some point, but, um, I've just been incredibly blessed from the family that I have to the friends I've made along the way. The colleagues I've met. Um, this past year I was in a group coaching program, therapists becoming the, wanted to become coaches and I, um, the program itself left a little bit to be desired, but the women I met.
In this group, um, this kind of new group of colleagues, the level of support, um, has just been incredible. And these are people I would not have met otherwise. So I, I just have all these people really rooting for me and that's kind of a new feeling because as I'm sure you could. Tell stories about there is a stereotype that women compete with each other.
Mm-hmm. And I think stereotypes do tend to come from a place of truth. And I have seen that before. I've had friends who just couldn't be happy for me or couldn't be supportive if they weren't at a similar level in their life. Whatever's that we're working on. You know, couldn't be happy for my relationship if they were single.
Couldn't be happy for my business if they were unemployed type thing. And so just really trying, like I said, curating that group of people earlier to be cheerleaders for each other and to really see, you know, one person's success with everyone's success and built each other up, um, has been a game changer.
Yeah. It's, it's one of my, I guess, mantras is you shouldn't do business without a coach or a community. Mm-hmm. And it's why I've created what I have. Right. 'cause the, the Thrive membership, it's, it's only women entrepreneurs and there's always been conversations about should, you know, be, be open to men, do we need a men's group?
It's an ongoing conversation in my business. Um, and every time I ask the women, they're like, no. And I'm like, they're like, Nope, we can talk about things here. Totally safe that we would not. I'm like, okay, okay. I heard you. Um, but it changes things 'cause entrepreneurship is such a lonely endeavor and I, I don't think, um, it gets talked about more now, but like, you don't realize that when it's all on you that you're gonna have to, you know, fix whatever breaks down at 2:00 AM or.
And we, you're carrying the weight of it on your shoulders in a different way than you would in a corporate environment. And so it's very different. And so many women, um, if you go back through some of these episodes as well, have talked about how. Their whole friend and, and circle of community shifted when they became an entrepreneur because they had to make choices.
You know, I joke that I'm like a con mari for your business because we, you have to stop doing everything to make it work. And sometimes choosing that means you have to, you know, I have a girlfriend who told all our friends, I'm starting a new business. I will see you in a year. I love you. I haven't forgotten about you.
And thank you for just letting me be on a hiatus.
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. You have to make those hard choices.
Yeah. So I'm, I'm so glad that you found those other women, and every time that women get together, amazing things happen. Amazing things. Oh, incredible. So I'm, I'm really glad that, that, that storyline in our culture is shifting.
And I'm glad that women are finding their people, people, and again, like somebody next to us has done it. Yeah. Or we can, it's easier to go through it together. Yes. Which I'm sure would be one of your pitches for why we should do group breakup coaching. Right, right,
right. Just getting to learn from other people and their experiences.
I was a big fan of group therapy when I was in grad school, and learning about the benefits of that and translating it to the coaching world like. How great to hear, you know, five other women who are in the same position that you're in and hear what's worked for them and what hasn't, and see someone who's a few months ahead of you on the same path, feeling better.
Mm-hmm. And oh, that could be me too. Yeah. So wonderful.
Well, and I love getting to see people also share and realize what a contribution they get to be. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Amazing. Well, for everybody who is like, I need to call her right now, where can they find you? Follow you? How can they connect with you?
So the best way right now, because my website is under construction being built, um, so the absolute best way is Instagram. Right now I am at Dr. Andrea, um, the breakup doc. On there I have, um, a link in my bio that gets you my freebie, my breakup first aid guide. You can book a consultation with me for any of my one-to-one services, and my course and group program will be coming early this year.
Love it. Well, thank you so much for being us, the Power GL podcast. I know there are so many people right now who are so happy they listened to this episode. Um, but thank you so much and I cannot wait to see how your 2022 goes. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. So that's will end the episode. You did amazing.
Cool. Um, any questions? I dunno if I make sense when I'm talking. I'm like, I dunno. You did perfect. I know. Sometimes it feels like you, like it's a blackout and you're like, oh, okay. I'm, I'm like, again.
Yes. I forget to tell people about my Facebook group. Oh, we'll see it in my Do you wanna say it now? We
can edit in.
Oh, okay. Yeah. Can I do the
where to find me thing again? Yes. Okay. Let's do that. So everyone who needs to call you right now, where can they find you, follow you? How can they get in touch with you?
Absolutely. So my website is under construction right now, so that will be coming soon. The best way to get me right now is on Instagram at Dr.
Andrea. That's Dr. Andrea liner, and in my link in my bio, you'll see a bunch of resources. I have a free breakup for aid guide. I have what's called the Breakup Clinic, which is a private free Facebook community for anyone going through a breakup. I do weekly lives and I monthly free hour long group coaching session in that Facebook group.
Um, lots of support in there. And you can find information to, uh, book a consultation for any of my one-to-one services and be on the lookout for info about my course and group program coming early this year.
Amazing. I'm so excited for you to get all sorts of calls after this. Um, but thank you so much for being on this.
So
thank you so much for having me.
All the links to connect with Dr. Andrea are in our show notes at the power of ladies.com. Please subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening, and leave us a rating and review. They are so critical for our podcast visibility. Thank you. Thank you. Come hang out with us on Instagram at Powerful Ladies, and if you're looking to connect directly with me, please visit kara duffy.com or follow me on Instagram at Kara Duffy.
I'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Until then, I we're taking on being powerful in your life. Go be awesome and up to something you love.
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Created and hosted by Kara Duffy
Audio Engineering & Editing by Jordan Duffy
Production by Amanda Kass
Graphic design by Anna Olinova
Music by Joakim Karud
